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Old December 27th, 2017, 10:37 AM   #51

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Originally Posted by Kevinmeath View Post
Its not beyond the realms of possibility and there was an independence movement.

But we know from history that Japan did proclaim Indian Independence ,established a 'Free' Indian and even raised an Indian army and it didn't have the effect claimed in this 'fanciful' scenario.

Given what happened at Independence the sub-continent is more likely to be a source of on-gong internal conflict (especially with the British still involved) as a power base of an invincible coalition.
Of the Axis powers, Japan was the only one that gained no allies. Wherever they landed, guerrilas sprang up to fight them, including former colonial powers that would have welcomed liberators (indochina for example).
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Old December 27th, 2017, 10:47 AM   #52
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IIRC the IJN Pearl Harbor force had to refuel en route back to Japan and refit for some time after.
not surprising... its a round trip of over 12 000 km.... so at a cruise speed of some 500 km per day that would be a 24 day trip and a capital ship would use all of its fuel...

The fleet left Japan on Nov 26 and got back on Dec 23 so in fact about 27 days of sailing (but they did not take the shortest route) with some bursts of speed on certain days



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Old December 28th, 2017, 01:25 PM   #53
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Of the Axis powers, Japan was the only one that gained no allies. Wherever they landed, guerrilas sprang up to fight them, including former colonial powers that would have welcomed liberators (indochina for example).
Completely false, 30,000 Indian prisoners joined Japan inSingapore-Malaya and fought the British.

Burmese killed Indians and British, helping Japan to expel them.

Thais allied themselves with Japan after invaded by Japan and then invaded Burma and Malaya with Japan.

DEI natives kept fighting the allies after Japan evacuated them (with Japanese weapons and officers).
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Old December 28th, 2017, 01:40 PM   #54
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not surprising... its a round trip of over 12 000 km.... so at a cruise speed of some 500 km per day that would be a 24 day trip and a capital ship would use all of its fuel...

The fleet left Japan on Nov 26 and got back on Dec 23 so in fact about 27 days of sailing (but they did not take the shortest route) with some bursts of speed on certain days



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Canada the US and Mexico are much much closer to Japan than travelling SE all the way to Hawaii and returning to Japan! The world is roun and the arc to Hawaii and back, stopping in Wake is hellacious, compared to the Arc Japan Canada to ramin in the Americas.

Japan did not have any full refits after PH, some carriers fought in the DEI and in mid february the launched a riad on Darwin, quite far from Japan and seized Rabaul. In April (Easter) they launched a raid in extremely distant Ceylon and the Bengal coast. In May they had a CVE and their best CV in the cotal Sea.

Just look at the incredible route of Ryujyu between 7 Dec, 1941 and Guadalcanal, and she was just a CVL.

Shokaku did have a major repair after the Coral, so she was not available for Midway. Zuikaku had lost much of its complement but was intact and should have been deployed in Midway to keep planes ready for take off, land planes faster and provide mechanics, repair area, medical services, munitons, aviation fuel, etc, It was etxremely stupid and arrogant of Yamamoto not to deply her (being his best carrier, much superior to Soryu and Hiryu).
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Old December 28th, 2017, 03:36 PM   #55

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Completely false, 30,000 Indian prisoners joined Japan inSingapore-Malaya and fought the British.

Burmese killed Indians and British, helping Japan to expel them.

Thais allied themselves with Japan after invaded by Japan and then invaded Burma and Malaya with Japan.

DEI natives kept fighting the allies after Japan evacuated them (with Japanese weapons and officers).
There were guerrilla movements in all of those countries as well as Vietnam, the Philippines, Singapore, Borneo, Manchuria, and China. No country allied with Japan in Asia.
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Old December 28th, 2017, 04:47 PM   #56
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The distance Japan-Vancover is nothing, Japanese ships transported millions of tons of oil, scrap iron, lumber, etc, for long years before the war.

While the Japanese were fighting millions of Chinese on 7 Dec, 1941 (having to supply them), they landed large armies in the PI (which wiped out Mac's stronger force, with a more powerful air fleet than that in WA state), landed several divisions each in Malaya, Thailand, Hong Kong, Guam, the Gilberts, etc, while all their CV, 2 BB, etc, were trouncing the USN, aviation, etc, in PH, all simultaneously and within weeks attacked Wake, which they failed to take at first, only because they had no guns heavier than destroyers and CL and no airplanes, while the US had 12 Wildcats (which were invaluable at the time, so it was rather stupid to waste them in an untenable island, which fell as soon as carrier planes and heavier guns returning from the PH raid attacked it. Because of that stupidity, invaluable Yorktown and Enterprise returning separately to PH were extremely vulnerable, had few fighters and some of them useless Buffalo, The USN was extremely lucky that Nagumo rushed away with his invincible fleet, instead of lingering to send a 3er wave and sink at least a weak carrier with his six), Borneo, etc, Burma, Singapore, etc, Within konths the Japanese also raided Darwin and Ceylon (quite far from Japan and from each other, but close the the former DEI, controlled by Japan. In a couple of months Japan wiped ou all American, British, Dutch planes and troops over a huge area with limited food, etc, Just the 700 km they pedalled on bicycle in Malaya, through jungles, etc, for 3 division to capture over 100,000 British troops is a colossal feat, compared to landing in Mexico, Canada and extremely sparsely populated and weakly defended US west coast. Similarly, 2 divisons in extremely difficult Burma defeated several British divisions, 10 Chinese division (rushed in too late, because the British didn't think that they needed them).

ATL no transport capacity or Japanese troops are wasted on China and all those locations, the Japanese have acquired even more ships from the British in the Pacific Indian Ocean, when they took Singapore, Ceylon, South Africa, etc, and declared Indian indipendence and they have millions of experienced Chinese troops available. The west coast has more food than people, again, it is an invader's dream compared to Chang Sha, Central Burma, the Kokoda Trail, Borneo, Malaya, etc,
It’s very much like Blitzkrieg. Surprise attacks are only surprises once. After that it becomes attrition. The Wehrmacht actually broke its spear in front of Moscow in the winter of 1941. It was all downhill from there even as the Germans continued to make large encirclements, they were in fact trying to drain a barrel with a teaspoon.

There would be no surprise involved in invading America, or South America, or Australia or New Zealand. It is true that the US Army was a bit of a joke in 1939 but midway through 1942 it was no longer a joke. It is true that US forces were defeated at Kasserine, but that was the last defeat they suffered in North Africa as the Afrika Corps was squeezed between British forces and US forces coming from the west.

While the Japanese were fully mobilized for war, the US forces grew exponentially and would do nothing but get stronger. It’s no surprise that the attack on Pearl Harbor and the Philippines succeeded - that’s what surprise attacks do. Attack a nation at peace and a surprise attack will succeed. But not for long. Just like the Soviets were able to trade space for time, so could the US do the same, except that an invasion of the US west coast was always beyond the capacities of Japan.

The US really was not ready for the invasion of Guadalcanal and sent in rather ill-equipped Marines to attack the Japanese forces there and still they beat them even after the debacle of Savo Island. Ruthenium, you might try to remember that the US and Anzac forces won every single island campaign in the Pacific. The Japanese lost all of them - every single one, after the initial surprise attacks by the Japanese. That’s what I’m trying to point out to you: after the surprise, it’s all about attrition and the Japanese simply bled out in the Pacific.

A great example is Midway. After those four big carriers were lost, the IJN could never recover, especially all those experienced pilots who, it turned out, were pretty much irreplaceable for Japan. Consider too that Midway took place only six months after Pearl Harbor. Six months and the Japanese offensive spear was decisively broken. The problem for them is that they couldn’t really replace their carriers while the US could literally build dozens, and did.

Interesting as the scenario is, I find it rather ludicrous - about as ludicrous as the Japanese starting the Pacific War in the first place.

Last edited by royal744; December 28th, 2017 at 04:58 PM.
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Old December 28th, 2017, 06:06 PM   #57
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It took years for the US, in full production mode, to be be able to ship mass formations of troops, and even then they needed close bases (Britain, Okinawa) to do so. Look at the scale of the fleets involved for DDay, or even something smaller like Iwo Jima.
Not exactly. In November, 1942, the US sent 35,000 US troops under the command of General Patton straight from the US in Operation Torch to North Africa. They joined other convoys from Great Britain. That’s about 4,000 miles in a fleet of about 100 ships. My late father-in-law served on a destroyer accompanying the invasion force.
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Old December 28th, 2017, 09:43 PM   #58
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Not exactly. In November, 1942, the US sent 35,000 US troops under the command of General Patton straight from the US in Operation Torch to North Africa. They joined other convoys from Great Britain. That’s about 4,000 miles in a fleet of about 100 ships. My late father-in-law served on a destroyer accompanying the invasion force.

Torch yes....

However Morocco was hardly defended, and it was little better in Algeria...

Plus Gibraltar, a british base is quite close to north Africa.....

and the locals either did not care or welcomed the americans

Plus that operation remains exceptional... and it is still closer from the US to Morocco than from Japan to the US (distance in that last case is about twice bigger)
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Old December 29th, 2017, 05:54 AM   #59

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Completely false, 30,000 Indian prisoners joined Japan inSingapore-Malaya and fought the British.
Yes Indian POW's and some 'Indian' ex-patriots formed the INA and Japan declared India to be independent and even established a regime in some isolated 'liberated' islands.

But what you ignore in your fantasiesis reality.

Many Indian soldiers despite brutal treatment remained loyal and that there were no large scale desertions from Indian Army units in combat.

The fighting record of the INA was poor and they only supplied auxiliary troops.

So your claim that a sudden mass change of sides by India didn't happen in reality so its foolish to claim in your 'speculative' history.

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Burmese killed Indians and British, helping Japan to expel them.

...................................

And equally the British raised local units to fight the Japanese and locals aided units such as the Chindits.
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Old December 29th, 2017, 07:32 AM   #60
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Torch yes....

However Morocco was hardly defended, and it was little better in Algeria...

Plus Gibraltar, a british base is quite close to north Africa.....

and the locals either did not care or welcomed the americans

Plus that operation remains exceptional... and it is still closer from the US to Morocco than from Japan to the US (distance in that last case is about twice bigger)
My post was in reply to zincwarrior’swhere he said it would be years before the US could organize such a long distance operation. It took 11 months.
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