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View Poll Results: Does Socialism Work?
Yes. (Please post reasoning for choosing this option below) 4 19.05%
No. (Please post reasoning for choosing this option below) 17 80.95%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 22nd, 2017, 06:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorsam View Post
let's use US car companies as an example.

there used to be a ton of them. many were too small or failed to develop quality products and went out of business (Studebaker).
many smaller companies got squeezed during various economic periods (mid 70s gas crisis) and got bought out by bigger companies (Jeep, purchased by Chrysler).

so now in the US we have about five car companies, figuring that foreign companies (Mitsubishi, Mercedes) have some joint ventures.

as long as they stay content we will continue to have four-five-six auto companies. it's not likely any of these will have the capital to undercut the others seriously.

however, imagine a new player with a lot of capital (some Chinese government subsidized company maybe) entering the market with quality vehicles built by near-slave labor selling for 3/4 the price of the existing companies. theoretically they could undersell the others and become the only auto dealer/maker in the US. then they could triple their prices and try to keep out competitors (Korean, Indian).

the pattern seems to be, many small companies at first, gradually settling to a handful of big companies.

technology can be a game changer. several television networks fell by the wayside over the years (Dumont, Mutual) until we had three networks plus PBS (socialism!). then cable and satellite changed the industry and we have multiple channels/networks. but history is repeating itself and the independents are getting bought up (History Channel is owned by A&E Network, which also owns Lifetime and CI Channel).
OK now let me synthesize what you are saying.

-Take the car industry, an industry that has been subsidized by the US government through tariffs and tax breaks and other means (clearly what can be titled corporatism and not capitalism) OK I can play ball.

-Let's have four to six individual corporations who are happy with their market share (a majority of people would consider capitalism to be competitive, to socialists, it is hyper-competitive to the point of near destruction) OK I'm with you so far.

-Let's have a government subsidized auto-industry come into the picture.

Wait what? I thought we were talking about capitalisms failures? Now we have a corporation that is subsidized by the government, that is capitalism?

-Let's say that government-backed industry undercuts the other corporations and puts them out of business and then raise their price when they push out their competitors.

Well ok let's say this corporation which is clearly not found on capitalist ideals is undercutting and driving out business only to raise those rates when the driving out is complete. What is stopping other car companies from re-entering the marketplace in order to then undercut this Chinese business when it raises rates? If you continually undercut and make a product at a loss then you will eventually drive yourself out of that business. Unless you are somehow able to freeze markets or prevent new competitors from entering, your model is invalid.

-Now you see the monopolization of capitalism

Yes. We should prevent government-back industries from entering the market! Down with socialism! Hizzah!
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Old December 23rd, 2017, 10:00 AM   #32

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I don't know about socialism. Although communism is far from perfect, during earlier times, it helped certain communist countries faster than certain non-communist countries that were poor. In a communist system, countries with more food and supplies helped out the less fortunate ones. This was why North Korea actually recovered faster than South Korea did during the 50s and the 60s. However, North Korea became too dependent on that aid. South Korea caught up and surpassed North Korea afterwards. When communism collapsed in Eastern Europe, North Korea stopped getting help from Eastern Europe. That was when life became very difficult in North Korea. Also, the North Korean government is a type that fears a wealthier and well-informed public. It tries to prevent their citizens from becoming that way. I think it's a very fragile system.

Last edited by Blue; December 23rd, 2017 at 10:07 AM.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 10:40 AM   #33

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Divinespark View Post
OK now let me synthesize what you are saying.

-Let's have a government subsidized auto-industry come into the picture.
Wait what? I thought we were talking about capitalisms failures? Now we have a corporation that is subsidized by the government, that is capitalism?
in this scenario the capitalistic car companies are suddenly forced to compete against an outside gummint-subsidized company.
point is, socialist/communist industries are not playing on a level playing field. short run, things go better. long run, they don't.

Blue, this goes with your post. the progress you speak of was not caused by the communist system, but by a totalitarian system. any dictator could have come in and improved things, at the risk of implementing a police state. Germany in the 1930s recovered nicely from the Great Depression but at huge later cost.

Last edited by sailorsam; December 27th, 2017 at 10:43 AM. Reason: add useful content
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Old December 28th, 2017, 01:23 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailorsam View Post
in this scenario the capitalistic car companies are suddenly forced to compete against an outside gummint-subsidized company.
point is, socialist/communist industries are not playing on a level playing field. short run, things go better. long run, they don't.

Blue, this goes with your post. the progress you speak of was not caused by the communist system, but by a totalitarian system. any dictator could have come in and improved things, at the risk of implementing a police state. Germany in the 1930s recovered nicely from the Great Depression but at huge later cost.
So you are assuming that a communist government can calculate the cost production to the point where they can outcompete capitalist economies, what gives you evidence that? And you didnít answer my question about how the other companies can get back into the market when the government back organization raises its rates
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Old December 28th, 2017, 01:31 PM   #35

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I go back to history.

Theoretically also a theocracy can work ... but in Iran, just now, they are renouncing to put in jail who doesn't follow the precepts about what to wear in public ... they are stepping back ... from putting in jail to reeducate ...

The only form of Socialism which can work is the one renouncing to Socialism ... like it happens in China where a Socialist country has adopted market economy.

Real Socialism can exist only applied to a species without superior thought and individuality. Otherwise ... competition will come out ... in a way or an other.
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Old December 28th, 2017, 09:51 PM   #36
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Socialism really only works in practice at the small tribal level with family bonds and tribal shaming/everyone buying in.

You start to lose accountability and social carrots and sticks (the glue of socialism) at higher population levels.
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