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Old December 27th, 2017, 12:01 AM   #51
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And if were deployed before the war? Like today? (NATO Military Presence in Poland). Was avoid war possible? Some people say: "Hitler's attack was necessary, because Adolf needed raw material and he had debts."
If US troops were deployed in France before September 1939 I am not sure it would have avoided war, as Adolf had a low opinion of the americans.. but the allies would have been much stronger and probably able to carry some sort of offensive operation against Germany.... Perhaps Belgium could then also have been persuaded to join the alliance...
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Old December 27th, 2017, 12:07 AM   #52
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Again any delay of more than a few months means the Allies start employing nukes. Time is a factor to save German lives.

I guess in this scenario, Manhattan does not work out or is sabotaged by jewish scientists whose families are held hostage..... so the US does not get atomics in 1945 at all....
However as events has shown nukes were not needed to win the war in Europe.
And by mid 1944 Germany, which was short of oil to start with, was running on dry...

But again perhaps in this scenario the germans discover a large oil field underneath Berlin ?

Come to think of it, if you want a challenging "what if", the scenario should simply be "Germany discover huge oilfields in 1939..... Oil production exceeds 50 mio tons by 1940"
(that's more than 5 times what the axis produced)

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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:00 AM   #53

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Why on earth are you taking Mannstein at face value?
Even after Stalingrad, Manstein showed he was a very capable commander. He had a good grasp of the capabilities of his army and that of the USSR and was eminently qualified to state what was and wasn't possible. Although the conquest of the USSR was no longer possible by '43, a successful defense theoretically was, had the Germans withdrawn to a good defense line with their panzer elite still intact.

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By April 1943 the Soviets had crushed the 6th Army, and forced the Germans out of the Caucasus. The Germans were preparing to abandon the Rzhev salient,
The Germans had also crushed Popov, retaken Kharkov and stabilized the front. They could've done much better the rest of that year.

Last edited by starman; December 27th, 2017 at 04:17 AM.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:07 AM   #54

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How? The Allies were outproducing them, could call on far more troops and material, and had better intel and strategists. The Luftwaffe and Kreigsmarine were both shot too, and all of the Axis were on the back foot in all theatres. There is no way they could have fought to a standstill.
As I've tried to show, repeatedly, it would've been possible for the Germans first to stop the Soviets in '43, then stalemate the western allies--albeit not in northern France. In the likely event the war became a bloody stalemate well before the November 1944 elections, FDR might've been beaten and a new administration forced to alter US war aims and negotiate an end to the war, well before a-bombs became available.
True the allies had better stategists. That was the crux of the problem.

Last edited by starman; December 27th, 2017 at 04:18 AM.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:09 AM   #55

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If US troops were deployed in France before September 1939 I am not sure it would have avoided war, as Adolf had a low opinion of the americans..
Well I think there's a good chance Adolf would've been deterred because, his low opinion notwithstanding, he was eager to keep the US out of the war as long as possible. Note his 1941 admonitions to Doenitz for example.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:11 AM   #56

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And by mid 1944 Germany, which was short of oil to start with, was running on dry...
Exaggeration. To cite one example, U-boats remained in operation to the end, in '45.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:16 AM   #57

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Soviets tried to negotiate (unofficially, with Aleksandra Kołłontaj as emissary)
I read about secret negotiations in 1943, after Mansein's counterattack. It makes sense that both sides would seek a settlement then. Stalingrad showed the Germans couldn't overrun Russia but Kharkov 3/'43 showed that driving the Germans back could be horrendously costly. Now imagine if the Germans had established a defense line on the Dneiper right after Manstein's counterattack, as Stalin feared they would. The Soviets might've agreed to a settlement without even trying to break through that line--or soon after failing...
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Old December 27th, 2017, 04:25 AM   #58
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"Germany discover huge oilfields
...or Wehrmacht has entered huge oilfields... in Africa? in USSR?
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Old December 27th, 2017, 05:29 AM   #59

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...or Wehrmacht has entered huge oilfields... in Africa? in USSR?

I don't think the Libyan oilfields were yet known or if they were, it was too late to develop them. Soviet oilfields might've been taken had Army group A gotten priority over B in the summer of '42.
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Old December 27th, 2017, 05:37 AM   #60
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Germany could win against Soviet Union in 1942, if they concentrated their powers going for second offensive against Moscow . Unlikely, Red Army will resist second offensive. Even Russian historians admit this. Instead, Germans decided to cut off oil supply from Baku on Volga near Stalingrad (Volgograd today). Red Army had time to regroup. People behind the front line worked around the clock making weapons, clothing, food, medicine. Red Army was given breathing time. It was a vital mistake by Germany in my opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Moscow
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