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Old January 2nd, 2018, 01:50 PM   #21
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I wrote the thread in 1927, obviously a 1914 operation was not possible then, it was an introduction to Uddet's epiphany (the name of the thread).

For the 3rd time, encircled troops in Demyansk were not isolated, but supplied by air, with a much weaker trabsport force than OTL and much further from the closest German base than Paris with German forces in Le Bourget, Amians, Sedan, Luxemburg, Metz and Belgium or London with German bases in Dover, Calais, Belgium, Holland, Ireland and supplied by ship and air.

Norway, Holland, Belgium and Crete were so successful that they encouraged Britain and the US to develop expensive airborne forces. (and they took a hell of a long time to do it in a rather poor way).

Germany is not spending on Ireland or Holland, it is investing, for they become a vital part of Germany upon annexation. Like I said OTL Germany was buying grain, etc, from the USSR, its ultimate enemy at the time and was not selling coal (which it produced in abundance) to Ireland it certainly benefits more from buying food and badly needed ships from Ireland for coal, tractors, airliners, etc, than it does from buying from the USSR and selling it the cruiser, planes, etc, as he did OTL.

Germany also bought oil from the US and the USSR, which he could have bought from Dutch shell in the DEI, it also imported eggs, cheese and other foodstuffs produced by Holland, Denmark, etc, and rubber from Britian, which it could have bought from Hollanbd (which had to curtail greatly its rubber production during the depression) so it makes a lot of sense to buy these products and badly needed ships to boost the Dutch economy to induce annexation and gain invaluable colonies full of oil, rubber, tin, nickel, spices, invaluable bases in Suriname, Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire, DEI and next to Belgium, Britian and close to France in Holland.

They are not supply dumps, they are several tons of most useful munitions, fuel, armament, medical supplies, food, etc, to supplement the invaders in every embassy and consulate in invaded cities.
You can find thousands of rather fit, young tourists in Paris, London, etc, in the Spring and summer every year and in the depression, their spending would be certainly appreciated, rather than suspected. Nobody has any reason to suspect war, you do, because you read the thread, the Swiss, French, British, Soviets and Americans did not expect or want war and OTL went out of their way to avoid it when they could have stopped it.

Nobody did anything important when Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, Japan invaded China in 1937 or Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in 1939. In this scenario Hitler has not invaded anything or threatened anybody before striking, just rapidly improved the German economy and that of all annexed territories, so they admire Hitler even more than OTL (he was time magazine's men of the year for 1938, the year he annexed Austria and then invaded the Sudeten with French and British approval).

Britain did not occupy anything during the war in hours, much less in peace time. The Britis invasions of Norway, even tiny, neutral, undefended, nearly unpopulated Iceland were lousy affairs. Even during the phoney war, after 8 months, British forces in France were a joke for such a mighty empire.

Ireland had an army, and as soon as it is annexed Germany reinforces it by plane and ship. Like I said Britain did not mind Hitler acquiring Czechoslovakia's mighty armament industry and startegic position to invade Poland. Instead, Chamberlain went out of his way to accomodate Hitler and convince Daladier not to back Czechoslovakia and start WW II over the Sudeten (which had the Czech defensive line). Chamberlain is certainly not going to start WW II over bloody Ireland or Holland volontarily requesting annexation.

Britain's population is much smaller than Germany and its huge colonies produced much more food than tiny, poor Ireland.

I do know a little about Irish history. The British ruined it for centuries, forced them out of the best land in Ulster (which the Irish governmebt cobnsidered part of Ireland and requested that Britian cede it back to it (but Britain simply ignored them). Cromwell killed thousands of Irish and then Britian allowed so many millions of Irish to starve that millions migrated to the US risking their life fighting for north and south duringthe civil war. The population of Ireland went from 8 million to 4 and never recovered.
Like I mentioned, during 1935, the crucial year ATL, Britian engaged in a tariffs war with Ireland, whcih greatly exacerbated the already depressed economy. The Irish came up with the solgan "burn everythging British, except coal" and started using more, much inferior peat. IT was an ideal opportunity for Germany to step in, but Hitler was more worried about the Autobahn, mega cannon, Bismark, Ahnenerbe, the Olympics and other expensive and stupid projects.

Last edited by ruthenium; January 2nd, 2018 at 01:52 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:30 AM   #22

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I wrote the thread in 1927, obviously a 1914 operation was not possible then, it was an introduction to Uddet's epiphany (the name of the thread)..
No you didn't you started off rambling about the Tsars plane and you fantasy's about giant planes.

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For the 3rd time, encircled troops in Demyansk were not isolated, but supplied by air, with a much weaker trabsport force than OTL and much further from the closest German base than Paris with German forces in Le Bourget, Amians, Sedan, Luxemburg, Metz and Belgium or London with German bases in Dover, Calais, Belgium, Holland, Ireland and supplied by ship and air..
And also totally failed to supply the army at Stalingrad, and you are talking about supplying at more than one isolated pocket but dozens at a time.

Just silly fantasy.

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Norway, Holland, Belgium and Crete were so successful that they encouraged Britain and the US to develop expensive airborne forces. (and they took a hell of a long time to do it in a rather poor way)..
They were impressive to the Allies but they were unaware how close they came to failure. Crete in particular impressed the British but notice that the Germans barely used paratroopers in their intended role after that? and vetoed other similar operations.

You are not proposing one Crete operation but dozens!

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Germany is not spending on Ireland or Holland, it is investing, for they become a vital part of Germany upon annexation. Like I said OTL Germany was buying grain, etc, from the USSR, its ultimate enemy at the time and was not selling coal (which it produced in abundance) to Ireland it certainly benefits more from buying food and badly needed ships from Ireland for coal, tractors, airliners, etc, than it does from buying from the USSR and selling it the cruiser, planes, etc, as he did OTL..
Sorry you really don't have a clue do you? Ireland is a small agricultural country whose main industry (even today) is food whose main market is the UK-- they are not going to be producing coal (there are no coalfields)tractors or ships for Germany.

There are major shipyards but in Ulster ie the UK.

You require money and resources to invest 1930's Germany has little to spare and building up other countries is not in the Nazi's philosophy.

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Germany also bought oil from the US and the USSR, which he could have bought from Dutch shell in the DEI, it also imported eggs, cheese and other foodstuffs produced by Holland, Denmark, etc, and rubber from Britian, which it could have bought from Hollanbd (which had to curtail greatly its rubber production during the depression) so it makes a lot of sense to buy these products and badly needed ships to boost the Dutch economy to induce annexation and gain invaluable colonies full of oil, rubber, tin, nickel, spices, invaluable bases in Suriname, Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire, DEI and next to Belgium, Britian and close to France in Holland..
I suspect the Germans wanted to boost the German economy not the Dutch!

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They are not supply dumps, they are several tons of most useful munitions, fuel, armament, medical supplies, food, etc, to supplement the invaders in every embassy and consulate in invaded cities. .
A few basements with some small arms are not going to be enough to supply whole Divisions of airborne troops.

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You can find thousands of rather fit, young tourists in Paris, London, etc, in the Spring and summer every year and in the depression, their spending would be certainly appreciated, rather than suspected. Nobody has any reason to suspect war, you do, because you read the thread, the Swiss, French, British, Soviets and Americans did not expect or want war and OTL went out of their way to avoid it when they could have stopped it. .
But they still have peacetime standing armies and sorry infiltrating thousands of paratroopers disguised as tourists is one of the more laughable parts of your plan.

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Nobody did anything important when Mussolini invaded Ethiopia, Japan invaded China in 1937 or Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia in 1939. In this scenario Hitler has not invaded anything or threatened anybody before striking, just rapidly improved the German economy and that of all annexed territories, so they admire Hitler even more than OTL (he was time magazine's men of the year for 1938, the year he annexed Austria and then invaded the Sudeten with French and British approval)..
Actually there was diplomatic exchanges and the world was on the brink of war over the Czech crisis and when Hitler broke his word and took the whole country -- war was threatened and that threat carried out.

So sorry Hitler tries to annexe Ireland-- its occupied Ireland and war.

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Britain did not occupy anything during the war in hours, much less in peace time. The Britis invasions of Norway, even tiny, neutral, undefended, nearly unpopulated Iceland were lousy affairs. Even during the phoney war, after 8 months, British forces in France were a joke for such a mighty empire..
Not really and occupation of Ireland would have been comparatively easy.

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Ireland had an army, .

Not really.

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and as soon as it is annexed Germany reinforces it by plane and ship. Like I said Britain did not mind Hitler acquiring Czechoslovakia's mighty armament industry and startegic position to invade Poland. Instead, Chamberlain went out of his way to accomodate Hitler and convince Daladier not to back Czechoslovakia and start WW II over the Sudeten (which had the Czech defensive line). Chamberlain is certainly not going to start WW II over bloody Ireland or Holland volontarily requesting annexation..
As soon as it is announced the British blockade it.

Your knowledge of Geography is as poor as your grasp of history-- you have to flyover and or sail around Britain to get to Ireland from Germany.

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Britain's population is much smaller than Germany and its huge colonies produced much more food than tiny, poor Ireland..
Its smaller but it is not small, there is a difference and economically it completely dominated Ireland.

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I do know a little about Irish history. .
It appears you know as little about it as you do the rest of the world.

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The British ruined it for centuries, forced them out of the best land in Ulster (which the Irish governmebt cobnsidered part of Ireland and requested that Britian cede it back to it (but Britain simply ignored them). Cromwell killed thousands of Irish and then Britian allowed so many millions of Irish to starve that millions migrated to the US risking their life fighting for north and south duringthe civil war. The population of Ireland went from 8 million to 4 and never recovered..
As I said.

If you knew anything is that even the Nationalistic (anti-British?) leader of Ireland at the time De Valera stressed that he would never allow Ireland to be used as a base to threaten Britain.

Ever thought that the Dutch might value their independence?

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Like I mentioned, during 1935, the crucial year ATL, Britian engaged in a tariffs war with Ireland, whcih greatly exacerbated the already depressed economy. The Irish came up with the solgan "burn everythging British, except coal" and started using more, much inferior peat. IT was an ideal opportunity for Germany to step in, but Hitler was more worried about the Autobahn, mega cannon, Bismark, Ahnenerbe, the Olympics and other expensive and stupid projects.

Hitler was more worried about his own country rather than then a remote poor agricultural island whose Nationalist government were foolish enough to declare economic (much to the dismay of much of the population) war on their major trading partner.

They believed that their country needed no other so are highly unlikely to agree to be annexed by Nazi Germany.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 06:47 AM   #23

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Presumably "Uddet" is Ernst Udet.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 11:37 AM   #24
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Presumably "Uddet" is Ernst Udet.
Right
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:01 PM   #25
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The only reasons Stalingrad did not work out is that it had over a quarter million men, was surrounded by 1.5 million Soviets with 16,000 cannon, 2,000 tanks and planes, it is also a little harder to fly at 40 below than in Paris, London and Leningrad at the time chosen. Especially when Hitler has pulled away the few Ju 52 available, in order to supply and reinforce Tunisia (Torch had taken place), when the distance to Stalingrad is longer and when tanks occupy the airfields and Romanian, Italian and German infantry have very few AT guns and no Panzerschreck.

ATL the weather is decent, the British army has fewer green troops in peacetime 1937 than the Soviets had experienced generals, colonels and majors in late 1942 and they are not mobilized or deployed near London. The Matilda 1, the only modern British tank (available in ridiculous numbers) has only MG (no cannon) and is terribly slow.

France has by far most of the army closer to the German border. For the nth time, Germany is debarking also a strong force in London, Dover, etc, there are many French cities being also occupied between Paris and the German border (Sedan, Amiens, etc), motorcycles and airborne troops have Panzerschreck, there are few French and even fewer British tanks and extremely slow. Most importantly, there are over 20,000 large (though slow) transports, covered by excellent fighter-bombers (like the Hs 123).

It takes a rather simple mind to compare Stalingrad in 1942 and London, Paris, Amiens, Sedan, Calais, Dover, Canterbury, Folkestone, etc, in peacetime 1937.

That is the difference, England dominated (exploited Ireland and treated it like dirt), Germany boosts its economy by ordering ships, buying all the agricultural products (the huge German popuulation will rapidly digest them) for 8 months, then suddenly stops placing new orders, unless it requires annexation and thrives like the nations already annexed. Germany can even promise de Valera that within 2 years of annexation, Germany will demand the Britain yield Ulster back to the Ireland (now a German province), with strong German forces there, Britian will have no choice.

Last edited by ruthenium; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:35 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:06 PM   #26
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Everybody values independence. Unemployed Irish and Dutch shipyard workers, broken farmers, cheese producers, oilmen, rubber producers, etc, value independence from starvation, misery, disease without affordable medication or medical treatment, unemployment and depression above anything.

Did you know that during the depression things got so bad in the rich US than many Americans moved to Russia, Mexico, Brazil, etc, to find jobs (sacrificing some American rights)? Imagine how bad things got in poor Ireland, Estonia, Poland, etc,

Last edited by ruthenium; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:26 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:12 PM   #27
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De Valera promised that, later than the years of the thread, when WW II loomed. In 1935, his already very weak, depression economy was collapsing, thanks to the tariffs war with Britain.

You excel at reading a page, thinking you understand history and taking things comletely out of context for your arguments.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 12:19 PM   #28
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Hitler was so worried about his poor country, that the idiot wasted fortunes in the useless things I mentioned (Autobahn, capital ships, Ahnenerbe, propaganda movies, Olympics, etc,). Schacht managed to keep the economy going despite Hitler, until Hitler replaced him with daft Goering. The latter was secretary of the economy, Reichsmarschal (above all other military), head of the LW (which absorbed most of the economy), etc, Goebbels, Himller, etc, also had huge budgets and power, all this during the critical prewar time! no wonder Germany lost. Germany had to annex Austria and invade Czechoslovakia and Poland years before the LW, WM and KM estimated to be ready for war(1942-43), simply because the German economy had failed. Instead of boosting the economies of these countries, the Nazis sacked all the gold, devalued their coins and ruined their economies.

Last edited by ruthenium; January 3rd, 2018 at 12:30 PM.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:18 PM   #29

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The only reasons Stalingrad did not work out is that it had over a quarter million men, was surrounded by 1.5 million Soviets with 16,000 cannon, 2,000 tanks and planes, it is also a little harder to fly at 40 below than in Paris, London and Leningrad at the time chosen. Especially when Hitler has pulled away the few Ju 52 available, in order to supply and reinforce Tunisia (Torch had taken place), when the distance to Stalingrad is longer and when tanks occupy the airfields and Romanian, Italian and German infantry have very few AT guns and no Panzerschreck..
No Stalingrad showed that with 1940's technology its very hard to supply an army by air -- its even harder in the 1930's.

Sorry your 'imaginative' scenarios are simply completely divorced from reality.



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ATL the weather is decent, the British army has fewer green troops in peacetime 1937 than the Soviets had experienced generals, colonels and majors in late 1942 and they are not mobilized or deployed near London. The Matilda 1, the only modern British tank (available in ridiculous numbers) has only MG (no cannon) and is terribly slow..
Even slow tanks (Britain and France still have a peacetime army) are more than a match for lightly armed paratroopers.

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France has by far most of the army closer to the German border. For the nth time, Germany is debarking also a strong force in London, Dover, etc, there are many French cities being also occupied between Paris and the German border (Sedan, Amiens, etc), motorcycles and airborne troops have Panzerschreck, there are few French and even fewer British tanks and extremely slow. Most importantly, there are over 20,000 large (though slow) transports, covered by excellent fighter-bombers (like the Hs 123)..
So in four years the Nazis find enough resources to build 20,000 transports 'magic super planes' (no development time needed obviously) and then attack dozens of cities with secret air attacks (backed up by tourists and small supply dumps hidden in a couple of basements) at the same time.

Sorry its just rubbish.

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It takes a rather simple mind to compare Stalingrad in 1942 and London, Paris, Amiens, Sedan, Calais, Dover, Canterbury, Folkestone, etc, in peacetime 1937. .
Simple mind now that is true.

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That is the difference, England dominated (exploited Ireland and treated it like dirt), Germany boosts its economy by ordering ships, buying all the agricultural products (the huge German popuulation will rapidly digest them) for 8 months, then suddenly stops placing new orders, unless it requires annexation and thrives like the nations already annexed. Germany can even promise de Valera that within 2 years of annexation, Germany will demand the Britain yield Ulster back to the Ireland (now a German province), with strong German forces there, Britian will have no choice.
This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, in 8 months the Germans totally change the Irish economy? change it from being totally dependent on the UK to totally dependent on Germany?

Its Speculative history not fantasy land?

Germany threatens the Irish -- they'll be told to 'fek off'

Germany tries to take Ireland -- its war simple as.
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Old January 3rd, 2018, 03:20 PM   #30

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Everybody values independence. Unemployed Irish and Dutch shipyard workers, broken farmers, cheese producers, oilmen, rubber producers, etc, value independence from starvation, misery, disease without affordable medication or medical treatment, unemployment and depression above anything.,
There were no Irish shipyard workers (in the South) you sorry haven't got a clue what you are talking about.

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Did you know that during the depression things got so bad in the rich US than many Americans moved to Russia, Mexico, Brazil, etc, to find jobs (sacrificing some American rights)? Imagine how bad things got in poor Ireland, Estonia, Poland, etc,
People suffered in the depression that doesn't mean they wanted to become part of a Nazi super-state.
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