Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Speculative History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Speculative History Speculative History Forum - Alternate History, What If Questions, Pseudo History, and anything outside the boundaries of mainstream historical research


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old February 27th, 2018, 10:01 AM   #1

Visigoth Panzer's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Apr 2017
From: U.S.A.
Posts: 449
Death of Hapsburg Family around 1891


If the Hapsburg family, the rulers of Austria-Hungary were to be suddenly and completely wiped out in a single event (say by terrorist attack or meteor impact on Vienna); what would happen to their empire? Would it break apart into Austria and Hungary? Would Germany and/or Russia take over some or all of it? Or would it descend into civil war with every province trying to break off?
Visigoth Panzer is offline  
Remove Ads
Old April 11th, 2018, 10:44 PM   #2

Futurist's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: May 2014
From: SoCal
Posts: 12,138
Blog Entries: 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visigoth Panzer View Post
If the Hapsburg family, the rulers of Austria-Hungary were to be suddenly and completely wiped out in a single event (say by terrorist attack or meteor impact on Vienna); what would happen to their empire? Would it break apart into Austria and Hungary? Would Germany and/or Russia take over some or all of it? Or would it descend into civil war with every province trying to break off?
Are you talking about the immediate Hapsburg family or the extended Hapsburg family here? After all, the Hapsburg family had several branches by this point in time.

If all of them would die off, then I'm presuming that the closest relative through the female line of the last person in the Hapsburg line of succession would have become the new monarch of Austria-Hungary. As for what would happen afterwards, it would depend on what exactly this monarch would do and on how exactly this monarch would govern.
Futurist is offline  
Old April 14th, 2018, 10:15 PM   #3
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,163

If the dozens of Habsburg men and boys all died in 1891 and there were no more agnatic Habsburgs left, the rightful heir would be whoever the house laws of the dynasty and/or the laws of the Empire said.

Possibility one: nobody knows the order in which the Archdukes die, and so genealogical closeness to the emperor is the only fact to be considered.

I believe that The emperor's heir would the heir of his deceased son and heir Crown Prince Rudolph who had died in 1889. Rudolph's only child and heir was Archduchess Elizabeth Marie (1883-1963). The regency could have gone to Rudolph's sisters Archduchess Gisela (1856-1932), married to Prince Leopold of Bavaria, and Archduchess Marie Valeria (1868-1924), married to Archduke Franz Salvator of Austria-Tuscany who would have died and had no part in the regency.

If Archduchess Elizabeth Marie died in the 1891 incident her aunt Gisela might have survived since she was married to a Bavarian prince and didn't live in Austria and thus she would have been the closest female heir of Emperor Franz Josef.

If all the descendants of Emperor Franz Josef were dead, his brother Karl Ludwig (1833-1896) would also died in the incident along with his sons. Karl Ludwig's three daughter's were all unmarried in 1891 and so might have died with the brothers in the 1891 incident.

So if the descendants of Franz Josef's siblings were all dead, the next closest heirs would be the descendants of his father's siblings. Franz Josef's uncles had no descendants, so Pedro II, Ex Emperor of Brazil, who died in December 5, 1891, and his oldest daughter Isabel (1846-1921) would be the heirs.

But this is assuming that nobody knew the order in which the male archdukes died.

Possibility two:
.
But if people knew the order in which the male archdukes died, then the most senior who survived the Emperor would have automatically become Emperor, even if only for a few minutes or seconds. And if he had an older daughter who married into another royal family and was not killed in the disaster she would become the heir. And if he had no surviving descendants, and any other archdukes survived him, the most senior of them would have automatically have become the next emperor, even if only for a few minutes or seconds. And his oldest surviving daughter by virtue of marriage to a foreign ruler would then become the heir and the empress.

And so on and so on. Unless one imagines there a specific order in which the Archukes were known to have died, there would be no way to know who would become the rightful heir.
MAGolding is offline  
Old April 15th, 2018, 07:16 AM   #4

Visigoth Panzer's Avatar
Lecturer
 
Joined: Apr 2017
From: U.S.A.
Posts: 449

So, the order they died would effect the order of succession, even if they all died at once?
Visigoth Panzer is offline  
Old April 16th, 2018, 05:36 AM   #5

Kotromanic's Avatar
McCartneynite-Lennonist
 
Joined: Dec 2011
From: Iowa USA
Posts: 4,054
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visigoth Panzer View Post
So, the order they died would effect the order of succession, even if they all died at once?
I believe most bomb attacks that are plausible the order of death would be known.

Any sea vessel that may sink would have been a large boat so testimony could be taken about the circumstances of the heirs' passing.

Now, would the ministers of the government accept a succession from FJ to one of his heirs based on surviving the Emperor for a matter of a few minutes? If the ministers found the resulting candidate to be objectionable, then probably the legitimacy of the "minutes as sovereign" would be overturned.
Kotromanic is online now  
Old April 19th, 2018, 12:00 PM   #6
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,163

Quote:
Originally Posted by Visigoth Panzer View Post
So, the order they died would effect the order of succession, even if they all died at once?
What people knew about the order in which they died would make a difference in who was the rightful heir.

If a meteor exploded above the country estate where the entire Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty (except women married to foreign royalty) had gathered for, perhaps, a private birthday party for the emperor, and all that anyone could find was a smoking crater with no surviving Habsburgs, guests, or servants or even recognizable bodies, everyone would be assumed to have died instantly and at the same time. Thus genealogical closeness to the emperor would have to be the only consideration.

But if there was a terrorist attack by nationalists or anarchists or foreign secret agents and everyone was shot or killed by bombs, or if the country palace had an accidental carbon monoxide poisoning event, etc., etc., it would be quite likely for some of the Archdukes to survive for minutes, hours, or days before dying.

Many assassinated persons survived for minutes or hours after being shot, stabbed, or bombed in those days, instead of dying instantly.

So if there were surviving guests or servants they might tell rescuers the order in which the Archdukes died, as well as they knew it. And if any Archdukes survived until medical assistance arrived and/or until taken to a hospital, when each one died someone would probably look at his watch and record the time of death.

So if any of the Archdukes had recorded dates and times of death that were after the death of the Emperor, the Archduke who was genealogically closest to the emperor would be the legal next emperor for as long as he was alive, just as much as if he had not been harmed at all during the deadly event.

And after that surviving Archduke died, the next heir would be the closest genealogical heir among any surviving Archdukes, and so on until there were no archdukes left. When there were no more surviving Archdukes left, the throne should then go to the female line heir of the last surviving Archduke, his oldest surviving daughter, or his oldest surviving sister, if there was one.

The inheritance law of most German states was male only primogeniture, also known as agnatic primogeniture, meaning that the throne could only pas through males and only pass to males. The throne was restricted to only the male lineage (agnatic) male descendants of the founder. Until the agnatic descendants of the founder died out. Then it could pass through, or even to, females. And it would go to the closest relatives of the last ruler, who was the last surviving male member of the dynasty.

That is the reason why when the last male Habsburg, Emperor Charles VI died in 1740, his oldest daughter Maria Theresa was the rightful heiress to Austria, Bohemia, Hungary, Croatia, etc., etc. Her descendants became the dynasty of Habsburg-Lorraine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kotromanic View Post
I believe most bomb attacks that are plausible the order of death would be known.

Any sea vessel that may sink would have been a large boat so testimony could be taken about the circumstances of the heirs' passing.

Now, would the ministers of the government accept a succession from FJ to one of his heirs based on surviving the Emperor for a matter of a few minutes? If the ministers found the resulting candidate to be objectionable, then probably the legitimacy of the "minutes as sovereign" would be overturned.
After the Nepalese Royal Massacre on June 1, 2001 the comatose Crown Prince Dipendra was proclaimed king, and remained king for the three days that he lived, despite the fact that he is believed to have shot King Birendra and the others and then himself.

When King Charles X of France was deposed in 1830, he signed an abdication document on 2 August. His son and heir Louis antoine considered for about 20 minutes and then signed an abdication in favor of his infant nephew Henri, who was deposed 7 days later on 9 August. Thus Louis Antoine is considered to have been King Louis XIX for 20 minutes by legitimists.

Last edited by MAGolding; April 19th, 2018 at 12:25 PM.
MAGolding is offline  
Old April 21st, 2018, 07:49 PM   #7
Historian
 
Joined: Aug 2015
From: Chalfont, Pennsylvania
Posts: 2,163

I have to add that there are limits to agnatic succession - succession confined to the male lineage only, until the male lineage becomes extinct.

On 2 August 1589, King Henri III of Navarre inherited the crown of France and became King Henry IV of France, succeeding his distant cousin King Henry III.

How distant cousins were Henry III and Henry IV?

The new King Henry IV was the son of:
King Antoine of Navarre, Duke of Vendome, son of:
Charles of Bourbon, Duke of Vendome, son of:
Francois, Count of Vendome, son of:
Jean VII, Count of Vendome, son of:
Louis, Count of Vendome, son of:
John I, Count of La Marche, son of:
James, Count of La Marche, son of:
Louis I, Duke of Bourbon, son of:
Robert, Count of Clermont, son of:
King Louis IX of France (1214-1270).

The previous King Henry III was the son of:
King Henry II, son of:
King Francis I, son of:
Charles, Count of Angouleme, son of:
John, Count of Angouleme, son of:
Louis I, Duke of Orleans, son of:
King Charles V of France, son of:
King John II of France, , son of:
King Philip VI of France, son of:
Charles I, Count of Valois, son of:
King Philip III of France, son of:
King Louis IX of France (1214-1217).

So Kings Henry III and Henry IV were ninth cousins once removed, and their latest agnatic common ancestor died 319 years before Henry IV succeeded Henry III.

in 1777 Maximilian III Joseph, Elector of Bavaria, died, and was succeeded by his distant cousin Charles Theodore, Elector Palatine. They were even more distant cousins than Henry III and Henry IV, and their most recent agnatic common ancestor was Duke Louis II of Bavaria (1229-1294) who died 483 years before Charles Theodore succeeded Maximillian II Joseph.

In 1890 King William III of the Netherlands and Grand Duke of Luxembourg, died and his young daughter Wilhelmina became Queen of the Netherlands, but the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg was inherited by Adolphe (1817-1905), who had been Duke of Nassau from 1839 to 1866. Adolphe was William III's 17th cousin once removed. Their most recent agnatic common ancestor was count Henry II the Rich of Nassau (c. 1190-1251) who died 639 years before Adolphe inherited Luxembourg from William III.

But there was a case where the (possible) agnatic distant cousin heir was ignored.

In 1740 Emperor Charles VI, last male Habsburg, died, and his older daughter Maria Theresa inherited and kept most of his hereditary possessions - Austria, Bohemia, Croatia, Hungary, and Belgium - though France, Spain, Prussia, Saxony, and Bavaria attacked and tried to divide her possessions among themselves.

But it was possible that Emperor Charles VI was not actually the last male Habsubrg, that he might have had a very distant agnatic cousin that could have claimed to inherit all his hereditary possessions.

Charles VI's distant ancestor Ratbod (died by 1045), first Count of Habsburg, is listed as the son of Lanzelin or Landolt, Count in the Thurgau (died 991), son of Guntram the Rich (died after 973). Lanzelin/Landolt had another son Lancelin (died after 1027) who was the ancestor of the House of Zahringen. In 1740 the genealogically senior member of the house of Zahringen was Louis George, Margrave of Baden-Baden (1702-1761), and the present day head of the House of Zahringen is Maximilian (born 1933). The most recent agnatic common ancestor of Emperor Charles VI and Margrave Louis George was Lanzelin or Landolt (died 991), who died 749 years before Emperor Charles VI.

http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/BADE...amdiedafter973

As far as I know there never was any attempt by Louis George to claim to be the rightful heir of Emperor Charles VI, possibly because the the other states interested in the question were much more powerful than Baden-Baden.

So inheritance was always influenced by politics.

It is always good to check the succession laws. This article says that all the archduchesses since 1719 have had to renounce their rights of succession to the throne upon marriage, in favor of the closest female relative of the last male Habsburg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_o...ngarian_throne

If all the surviving archduchesses in 1891 were married to foreign royalty and had renounced their succession rights, and all the unmarried archduchesses were killed in the incident along with all the Archdukes, nobody would be left to inherit the throne.

But it is very hard to imagine circumstances were all the Archdukes and Archduchesses would gather together for a public event. With all the dozens of members of the dynasty, there should always be something that kept a few Archdukes and Archduchesses from attending, and thus some should survive.

Last edited by MAGolding; April 21st, 2018 at 07:55 PM.
MAGolding is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Speculative History

Tags
1891, death, family, hapsburg



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
East London Family death 321Go New Users 1 January 27th, 2018 04:32 AM
The Tsar and the Republic 1891 1917 CathareHeretic European History 0 August 25th, 2015 10:02 AM
the Habsburg/Hapsburg Zeno European History 27 June 8th, 2010 06:46 AM
A second tragic death in the Ramon family vera General History 6 September 15th, 2009 06:30 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.