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Old June 11th, 2018, 07:28 PM   #41
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Interestingly enough, I could see a non-Nazi authoritarian German regime starting a war with Poland over the Polish Corridor if Britain and France will refuse to fight on Poland's behalf. Still, in the grand scheme of things, I agree with you that a non-Nazi authoritarian German regime would have been more cautious--for instance, there wouldn't have been the desire to acquire the Sudetenland, or an occupation of Czechia (Bohemia and Moravia), or an invasion of the Soviet Union.
I would have thought there would have been some pull of Sudetenland, there was a lobby group of outlander Germans with some pull in right wing circles. But it's very doubtful that some other Authoritarian regime would have been as all or nothing reckless expansion of the Hitler Nazi regime, most likely more willing to compromise.
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Old June 11th, 2018, 08:33 PM   #42

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I would have thought there would have been some pull of Sudetenland, there was a lobby group of outlander Germans with some pull in right wing circles. But it's very doubtful that some other Authoritarian regime would have been as all or nothing reckless expansion of the Hitler Nazi regime, most likely more willing to compromise.
I would think that it would have made more sense for Germany to keep the Sudetenland inside of Czechoslovakia and to push the Sudeten Germans to use their political power inside of Czechoslovakia to push for all of Czechoslovakia to enter into, say, a customs union or economic union with Germany.

Also, you are very much correct that a non-Nazi authoritarian German regime would have probably been much more willing to compromise.
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Old June 11th, 2018, 08:47 PM   #43
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There simply was no prospect of a Communist take over. When push came to shove the SPD was willing to use force to put down the communists (as it did in 1919) as all other parties were willing to unite against the communists they would never have enough electoral support. The Nazis only got up because other parties were willing to work with them1, to hand them some power, and they did a deal with the Army, none of these tings were possible for the communists.
The Nazi party was stronger than any Freikorp or other right group, their Stormtroopers fought Communists in massive battles with lots of blood. The support given to the Nazis was a direct result of the very real threat the Germans felt from communists. Yes, SPD initially opposed the KPD but they also began allying with them once the Nazis were gaining more power (Antifa). Its easy to sit back now from comforts of hindsight and say it wouldn't happen but in 1932-34, Germans felt otherwise.
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Old June 11th, 2018, 09:00 PM   #44
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The Nazi party was stronger than any Freikorp or other right group, their Stormtroopers fought Communists in massive battles with lots of blood. The support given to the Nazis was a direct result of the very real threat the Germans felt from communists. Yes, SPD initially opposed the KPD but they also began allying with them once the Nazis were gaining more power (Antifa). Its easy to sit back now from comforts of hindsight and say it wouldn't happen but in 1932-34, Germans felt otherwise.
When were the Nazi Party stronger than any far right group? Only after Hitler united them.

The SPD and KPD hated each other. Got any source to back up these claim that SPD were allied with KPD. Nothing I ever read supports this,.

Yes there was fear of the communists. But just because some segments of German society feared the communists does not mean a communist take over was possible or likely.

Neither the KPD or NSDAP were strong enough to take over Germany without help. There were no signs that KPD would ever get any help. the NSDAP did.
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Old June 12th, 2018, 05:02 AM   #45

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The Nazi party was stronger than any Freikorp or other right group, their Stormtroopers fought Communists in massive battles with lots of blood. The support given to the Nazis was a direct result of the very real threat the Germans felt from communists. Yes, SPD initially opposed the KPD but they also began allying with them once the Nazis were gaining more power (Antifa). Its easy to sit back now from comforts of hindsight and say it wouldn't happen but in 1932-34, Germans felt otherwise.
It's fairly easy to check the results for the German federal elections during the Weimar years. The Nazis were an insignificant party up until the Great Depression. And they were not the largest party of the Right until the last few elections before their takeover of the German state. As noted before, there was no real threat of a Communist takeover. Hitler did use that fear to his advantage, but it was not what pushed him to power. He had been using an anti-Bolshevik rhetoric right from the start without gaining massive support, although it was in those first years that the Red fear was stronger and even more rooted to reality (the '19 Spartacist uprising). Only when the Great Depression devastated Germany did he start resonating to the masses, that were now seeking radical solutions to their extreme desperation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...election,_1928

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...election,_1930

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German...ion,_July_1932

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Old June 12th, 2018, 06:23 AM   #46
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It's fairly easy to check the results for the German federal elections during the Weimar years. The Nazis were an insignificant party up until the Great Depression. And they were not the largest party of the Right until the last few elections before their takeover of the German state.
It wasn't about elections. If it was the Weimar Republic would have succeeded, which it did not. The Weimar Republic was extraordinarily weak at the time (great depression), the appeal of communism was back, and that means violence, intimidation, riots. There were those who fought back, like the Freikorps, but they could never unify their personnel into a political block because they were not tied by a single political ideology. Until the Nazis. Then suddenly there another hugely violent political group, this one on direct competition with Communists. The gigantic street battles between Nazi Stormtroopers and Communist were legendary, with Röhm generaling on the streets, with Hitler as the letter and mouthpiece. From the viewpoint of fearful Germans, nobody fought as hard, as viciously, as violently as the Nazis, which gave them power beyond their electoral strength (which was increasing every year as a result of success fighting the "Reds")
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Old June 12th, 2018, 06:58 AM   #47
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It wasn't about elections. If it was the Weimar Republic would have succeeded, which it did not. The Weimar Republic was extraordinarily weak at the time (great depression), the appeal of communism was back, and that means violence, intimidation, riots. There were those who fought back, like the Freikorps, but they could never unify their personnel into a political block because they were not tied by a single political ideology. Until the Nazis. Then suddenly there another hugely violent political group, this one on direct competition with Communists. The gigantic street battles between Nazi Stormtroopers and Communist were legendary, with Röhm generaling on the streets, with Hitler as the letter and mouthpiece. From the viewpoint of fearful Germans, nobody fought as hard, as viciously, as violently as the Nazis, which gave them power beyond their electoral strength (which was increasing every year as a result of success fighting the "Reds")

So you got nothing showing the SPD allying with the KPD?
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Old June 12th, 2018, 08:19 AM   #48

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It wasn't about elections. If it was the Weimar Republic would have succeeded, which it did not. The Weimar Republic was extraordinarily weak at the time (great depression), the appeal of communism was back, and that means violence, intimidation, riots. There were those who fought back, like the Freikorps, but they could never unify their personnel into a political block because they were not tied by a single political ideology. Until the Nazis. Then suddenly there another hugely violent political group, this one on direct competition with Communists. The gigantic street battles between Nazi Stormtroopers and Communist were legendary, with Röhm generaling on the streets, with Hitler as the letter and mouthpiece. From the viewpoint of fearful Germans, nobody fought as hard, as viciously, as violently as the Nazis, which gave them power beyond their electoral strength (which was increasing every year as a result of success fighting the "Reds")
Why wasn't it about elections? It was through electoral gains that Hitler became Chancellor. If the Nazis had remained in their minuscule pre-Depression electoral results, what makes you think they would be given a chance to govern? Their anti-Communist rhetoric and actions were there from the start, yet it didn't translate into votes. What makes you think it impressed the Germans so much after the '29 economic crash, and not after the '19 Communist revolt? The Nazi electoral strength was not "increasing every year as a result of success fighting the "Reds"", it increased dramatically after '29, whereas the great battles against the Reds took place in '19. Between these two dates, Nazi electoral strength, and therefore appeal to people, was minimal.

What happened between the elections of '28 and the elections of '30, to justify a sudden increase of 15.69% in public support for the Nazis? And then another 19.02% further increase two years later, in 1932? And regarding the Communists, "the appeal of Communism was not back" after '29, it had remained stable throughout the 20's and into the 30's, with percentages around 10-15%. There is no ground in suggesting that the Great Depression dramatically increased support for Communism and as a result support for those fighting it. The Great Depression increased desperation and economic hardships, directly boosting support for the Nazis.

Last edited by Solidaire; June 12th, 2018 at 08:30 AM.
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