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Old June 14th, 2018, 04:00 AM   #1

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What might have happened had the Whites won the Russian Civil War?


Although in reality, the White(anti-Bolshevik) forces were handicapped by what historians like Orlando Figes( A People's Tragedy: Russia, 1890-1924) aptly termed their unimaginative and inflexible political programme(which in as much as it had any coherence, could be termed "putting the past back on its throne"- ie restoring as much as possible the Czarist autocracy as was possible), it is tempting to wonder what might have happened had the triumphed over the Bolsheviki. Once thing is certain: the estimated SIXTY SIX MILLION (yes that's right- sixty six million!) men, women and children who would die violent deaths due to conditions in the slave labour camps of Gulag( originated by Lenin, NOT Stalin incidentally), the various terror famines of collectivization( see Robert Conquest's "The Harvest Of Sorrow:Soviet Collectization And The Terror Famine", 1986) the casualties of WWII and the mass purges of Stalin, never mind the estimated 20 million casualties of WWII would have lived.
It seems ironic to me at least that not once but twice the Russian people had to settle for the homegrown tyranny rather than that of a foreign invader- first with the counter-revolutionary "Whites" and then a quarter century the even more reactionary Nazis!


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Old June 14th, 2018, 04:10 AM   #2
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You can't argue that because history might have taken a different course all would have been peaceful in Russia. There could well have been conflict between the White factions resulting in the emergence of a Stalin of the right that might have just as bad as the real one.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 04:55 AM   #3

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Maybe, but it hard to see how a White ruled Russia would have been worse than its Red counterpart!


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Old June 14th, 2018, 07:05 AM   #4

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The "Whites" (as I remember my school history) were not some monolithic Tsarist bloc, but a loose coalition of anti-red forces from Kerensky Social Democrats and the Octobrist constitutional Monarchists to the Liberal Kadets as well as the "Rightists" who included Tsarist elements and what we would call fascists today. Obviously one of the reasons that they couldn't form a coherent and effective opposition to the Reds. The big question should be how, had they defeated the Bolsheviks, could they have kept the country together when they appear to have been like a dozen cats in the same sack.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 07:58 AM   #5

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True enough, but although both Kornilov and Denikin denied that they were Czarists, enough of their political programme and supporters were associated with the ancien regime to give them an unappealing reputation- by contrast the Bolsheviks had a relatively simple appeal to the uncommitted peasantry-"grab no grablennoye"- "loot that which has been looted!" and "Bread, Land and Peace"! Too bad the Whites were too unimaginative to offer a "New Deal" to the Russian people- a Russia NEITHERr White or Red!


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Old June 14th, 2018, 08:20 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artistauthor View Post
Maybe, but it hard to see how a White ruled Russia would have been worse than its Red counterpart!


Terry
I'm not saying it would have been as bad but there might well have been horrors of a different sort.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 09:52 AM   #7
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Quote:
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True enough, but although both Kornilov and Denikin denied that they were Czarists, enough of their political programme and supporters were associated with the ancien regime to give them an unappealing reputation- by contrast the Bolsheviks had a relatively simple appeal to the uncommitted peasantry-"grab no grablennoye"- "loot that which has been looted!" and "Bread, Land and Peace"! Too bad the Whites were too unimaginative to offer a "New Deal" to the Russian people- a Russia NEITHERr White or Red!


Terry
You are wrong. Bolsheviks had very little support among peasantry, more they didn't really know what to do with peasantry and agriculture. Don't forget, it was workers revolution, not peasants. Whole deal with famines after revolution were mostly because Bolsheviks didn't even had clear idea how to manage peasants, they mostly confiscated harvests to feed their power base, workers.
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Old June 14th, 2018, 12:19 PM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
The "Whites" (as I remember my school history) were not some monolithic Tsarist bloc, but a loose coalition of anti-red forces from Kerensky Social Democrats and the Octobrist constitutional Monarchists to the Liberal Kadets as well as the "Rightists" who included Tsarist elements and what we would call fascists today. Obviously one of the reasons that they couldn't form a coherent and effective opposition to the Reds. The big question should be how, had they defeated the Bolsheviks, could they have kept the country together when they appear to have been like a dozen cats in the same sack.
Are you imagining Russia experiencing a warlord era in this scenario similar to what China experienced in the early 20th century in real life?

If so, if Hitler is still going to come to power in Germany in this scenario, Russia is going to be really, really screwed.
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