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Old August 11th, 2018, 08:30 PM   #1
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Hitler not so dumb?


Suppose Hitler decides the final solution can wait until after the war is won?

Suppose he decides war with the USSR can wait until the British surrender?

Suppose he decides if war becomes official with the USA the USA must declare it? (I hope I have cut off the wiggle room)

Suppose all of these things happen does it increase the butcher's bill significantly for Allied victory, not to mention the regular bills?

How much harder does it make Frank Capra's job? (Think)


And to not forget the Japanese, suppose they declare war 24 hours before they
attack anything?
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Old August 11th, 2018, 09:09 PM   #2
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Hitler couldn't wait with attack on Soviet Union. Stalin had stationed bunch of light divisions posed to cut Romania away from Germany. Without Romanian oil Germany cannot fight at all. So, to do anything differently you need to find source of oil for Germany to do that. I personally, have no idea where Hitler could get oil if he lost supply from Soviet Union and Romania.
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Old August 11th, 2018, 10:46 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by janusdviveidis View Post
Hitler couldn't wait with attack on Soviet Union. Stalin had stationed bunch of light divisions posed to cut Romania away from Germany. Without Romanian oil Germany cannot fight at all. So, to do anything differently you need to find source of oil for Germany to do that. I personally, have no idea where Hitler could get oil if he lost supply from Soviet Union and Romania.
I heard Stalin feared Germany might attack before he was ready and did a lot to placate Hitler. Is that wrong?
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Old August 12th, 2018, 01:10 AM   #4
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I have read that Stalin was not afraid of Hitler at all. He simply couldn't believe that Hitler would dare to attack Soviet Union. Stalin had more of everything, more tanks, more planes, more soldiers. Soviet Union was producing more as well, so it was reasonable for Stalin to wait because he was getting stronger every day. Hitler on the day on invasion didn't even have enough fuel to reach Moscow in a straight line without any battles.
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Old August 12th, 2018, 02:00 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlier View Post
Suppose Hitler decides the final solution can wait until after the war is won?

Suppose he decides war with the USSR can wait until the British surrender?

Suppose he decides if war becomes official with the USA the USA must declare it? (I hope I have cut off the wiggle room)

Suppose all of these things happen does it increase the butcher's bill significantly for Allied victory, not to mention the regular bills?

How much harder does it make Frank Capra's job? (Think)


And to not forget the Japanese, suppose they declare war 24 hours before they
attack anything?
Having read Bloodlands Iíve discovered that mass shootings of Jews and others were taking place almost immediately after the invasions of Poland and the USSR and that they werenít really affecting the German war effort. The killings were intensified and industrialised once Hitler realised that the war wasnít going to be won.

Did the fact that Britain was undefeated have much of an adeverse effect on the war in Russia? The thing we hear about the Eastern Front is that certainly until 1943-44 Germany could put nearly all her resources there.
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Old August 12th, 2018, 05:48 PM   #6
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Hitler was delusional regardless of what he might score on an IQ test.
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Old August 12th, 2018, 06:06 PM   #7

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He believed in astrology. How smart is that?
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Old August 12th, 2018, 08:47 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outlier View Post
Suppose Hitler decides the final solution can wait until after the war is won?

Suppose he decides war with the USSR can wait until the British surrender?

Suppose he decides if war becomes official with the USA the USA must declare it? (I hope I have cut off the wiggle room)

Suppose all of these things happen does it increase the butcher's bill significantly for Allied victory, not to mention the regular bills?

How much harder does it make Frank Capra's job? (Think)


And to not forget the Japanese, suppose they declare war 24 hours before they
attack anything?
A generic Fascist German without the Nazi ideology almost certainly defeats the USSR under the same circumstances. No better way to motivate an enemy to not surrender than certain death/various fates that are arguably worse than death. If Hitler does all the things you say Germany wins WWII but 1 and 2 of those things would require him to be a different man with different priority's and goals. Hitler could have beaten the UK but he just didn't want to conquer the UK, he also had a homicidal ideology that in his mind was the end and it's hard to get people to sacrifice an end for the means. Given what Hitler wanted and prioritized(mass murder and living space) 1 and 3 didn't make sense to him. When you say "final solution" I am referring to the part that involved the Soviet Union's citizens as this was the part that caused him the most military damage people can argue maybe rightfully so the priority placed on the European civilian genocide took away from the war effort but IMO the Soviet one was decisive as it moved the threshold for defeating the Soviet Union from something that was quite realistic to something almost impossible.

Number 3 is spot on, just a dumb move. The US involvement in WWII was necessary for 2 of the 3 fronts that destroyed the Third Reich and without that, it's up to the Soviets to totally conquer Europe(assuming the US wouldn't have declared war which they probably wouldn't have given they were a bit distracted at the time). Think the Soviets would have likely survived but wouldn't have been able to conquer the Nazi's either and the two would eventually have to accept a stalemate. I will say that the move looks far less dumb from a 1941 perspective if Hitler had reason to believe Japan would have attacked the USSR in return for his war declaration as is if this was the case the move turns from dumb to pretty decent. Still in hindsight this didn't happen and honestly given the challenge of winning the war with the US while already occupying much of China and the Rim, I feel that he should have known this decision was not going to get his desired result.

This last one relating to the Japanese just was not going to happen. The entire point of the Japanese offensive was to cripple the US and conquer the Pacific before they had a chance to respond and if you give them a chance to prepare even a little that seriously undermines the whole project. Japan knew the US had the capacity to win a long fight so the Japanese strategy was to win early and force a settlement. While I believe strongly they had a window to do this, it was a quite limited one and the Japanese would not have given advance notice. Japan might have still conquered the lions share of that territory but 24 hours prep time still changes a lot especially in regards to Pearl Harbor.

Last edited by Emperor of Wurttemburg 43; August 12th, 2018 at 09:01 PM.
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Old August 12th, 2018, 09:18 PM   #9

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[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by outlier View Post
Suppose Hitler decides the final solution can wait until after the war is won?
Not really a factor in holding Germany back during WWII, as GoLais mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by outlier View Post
Suppose he decides war with the USSR can wait until the British surrender?
And how exactly would he effect that?
Since the retreat at Dunkik, from Aug 1940-Mar 1941 rather than pushing the British towards defeat,, the Axis were in fact dealt a string of setbacks.

In Sept-Oct the Germans failed in the BoB
In November a substantial part of the Italian BB fleet was torpedoed at Taranto
In Dec-Jan an Italian army is destroyed in Operation Compass
In Mar the Italian navy is mauled again at Matapan
In April the Gneisnau is bombed in Brest and seriously damaged.

And while the Greek/British forces were defeated by the Axis in Greece, Rommel & friends were stopped cold by the Australians at Tobruk, and 4 assaults were repulsed.

Even if Germany weren't fighting the Soviets they still couldn't force Britain out of the war, and meanwhile they'd still have to leave a large garrison in central Europe.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Emperor of Wurttemburg 43 View Post
. Hitler could have beaten the UK
How exactly?
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Old August 12th, 2018, 09:41 PM   #10

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Originally Posted by outlier View Post

Suppose he decides if war becomes official with the USA the USA must declare it? (I hope I have cut off the wiggle room)

?
That doesn't help Germany at all in the first 12-18 months (after Pearl), but it helps the Allies a great deal

Quote:
Originally Posted by GogLais View Post
The thing we hear about the Eastern Front is that certainly until 1943-44 Germany could put nearly all her resources there.
We hear that - and it's wrong.
The mechanized reserves that Germany urgently needed to prevent a debacle at Stalingrad are instead tied up in Africa, Italy, France or executing Case Anton.
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