diddyriddick

Excellent points. If I might amplify a bit.....

The Kriegsmarine was frankly second rate, while Japan's navy was amongst the very best afloat. If one compares the submarine fleets, Germany has a slight edge, but used what she had much more effectively. With the exception of the Bismark Class, the Kriegsmarine had NOTHING on the surface which could compete with the IJN. And after June of 42, even the Bismarks were outclassed by the Yamatos. Significantly, Japan produced 16 aircraft carriers that saw service during the war, while Germany only had one still-born effort (Graf Zeppelin). Moreover, the IJN had superior carrier aircraft, training, and doctrine. It would have been at LEAST 1960 before Germany could mount a credible counterpart to Japan's navy.

So....If we're talking a naval war, Japan wins, and wins decisively-moreso if Tokyo actually uses their submarine fleet against merchant shipping rather than combat vessels. Ground war would undoubtedly be a German affair.

Belloc

I don't know about merchant shipping. Judging by their poor performance against US submarines, I'd say the Germans have the edge here.

diddyriddick

I acknowleged Germany's edge in submarines. But navies are not not ONLY about submarines. In 1940, naval aviation was just coming into its own. While Germany DID have an edge in submarines, particularly in doctrine, it was not enough to overcome their abysmal surface fleet. Bismark made one sortie before being sunk. Tirpitz spent most of the war bottled up in Norwegian fjords. And Graf Zeppelin was cancelled before she was launched.

Significantly, Germany's UBoat fleet was pretty much done after the middle of 43, largely because of the same US Navy you cited. They had some kills, but for the first time, the attrition rate was greater than they could replace the boats.

Belloc

Interesting point, but the Japanese navy was pretty much done after Midway or at the latest Leyte Gulf. I'll have to get back to you on this.

mingming

True but the Kriegsmarine was done before that.

diddyriddick

The Japanese fleet was done after Midway?

Of the 16 Japanese carriers that saw service during WWII, only 4 were sunk at Midway with one older light carrier sunk at Coral Sea. And only a handful of IJN gunnery type ships were sunk by June of 42. Indeed, as Rehabnono has rightly pointed out the second half of 42 was a precarious time for the US Navy in the Pacific being outnumbered in active carriers by a 4-1 margin. It wasn't until the Essex Class hulls started entering service in early 43 that the US Navy really started gaining the upper hand.

bartieboy

No, the German submarines harassed the allies till the very end.

mingming

So did Japanese submarines. The Japanese were building submarines like crazy towards the end of the war, even subs that could fit planes inside. And by done, I mean their navy practically ceased to be a major fighting force. The Japanese navy held out longer.

bartieboy

however i do believe Germany in the end would have a greater naval capacity. Because of its richer natural resources (iron mines etc.)

scholar

Capacity means nothing for quality.