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Old November 17th, 2011, 01:05 PM   #21

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would be easier to give an estimate of who would win if we knew where they were fighting or over what. war is a means to an end and both parties probably recognised the fact that a total war with the other would be almost to costly to justify whatever reason they were fighting for.

this is an area in history that i'm not really familiar with so could any one provide maps of both nations at the time. since neither shared any borders then the superior spanish navy would have been well employed
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Old November 17th, 2011, 01:07 PM   #22
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I dont see how Ottomans could win...
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Old November 17th, 2011, 03:48 PM   #23

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I don't understand why you are making hypothesis around this subject, most of the things that you're talking about took place actually. For most of this period both powers were in war, the outcome was a draw.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
IF Memory serves.....and it might not....I fail to recall any time that Spain (and I assume we are justs talking spain here) single handidly induced a major defeat at land or sea on the Ottomans. Lepanto, overrated, Malta was a nightmare. I just cant recall any. Numerosu Holy Leagues and other organisations failed to put a halt on the Ottomans (atleast not until the later 17th Century) .

Spain despite the wealth of the Americas was bankrupting itself for its part in the Hapsburg Valois conflicts.

I fail to see Spain overcoming the Ottomans. I cant se spain winning in such a struggle.
Well, they were effectivelly healted in the Mediterranean. The real problem for Spain was the rebellion in the Low Countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mohammed the Persian View Post
Ottomans! Hands down.
Bring in the mighty Janissary and all is lost for the Spaniards.
Add that to the command of Suleiman the Magnificent and ...
well... Resistance is futile
The mighty Jannisaries fought time and again against the mighty Tercio men. They developed a mutual respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by gaius valerius View Post
The Ottoman empire at that time was a lot wealthier then the Spanish Habsburgs, Charles V could only dream of the financial assets and forms of taxation that Süleyman enjoyed while the former had to subdue his own cities because they revolted over ill run negotiations over taxation. As far the statistics would go, the Spanish Habsburgs had little on the Ottomans.

Not so much, P.84-85
Política, estrategia, organización y ... - Enrique García Hernán, Davide Maffi - Google Libros


Curiously , that paper deals exactly with our discussion, P.75-102, "A comparative look at Ottoman and Habsburg resources and readiness for war circa 1520 to circa 1570".


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Originally Posted by Satuf View Post
The Spanish gained their powerful reputation from conquering who? The Native Americans?

The Ottomans gained their powerful reputation from all the conquests they achieved in Europe, Middle East, and North Africa. Places where nations are actually just as civilised and perhaps even more civilised than the Turks.

The reputation of the 16th century Spanish soldier came primely from their performance on hundred battles in North Africa and the Mediterranean against islamic powers, in Italy, in France, in the Low Countries, in Germany, in the Balkans, and the cold waters of the North Atlantic. And secondarily, in the New World and Eastern Asia.
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Old November 17th, 2011, 05:16 PM   #24

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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamWeaver View Post
IF Memory serves.....and it might not....I fail to recall any time that Spain (and I assume we are justs talking spain here) single handidly induced a major defeat at land or sea on the Ottomans. Lepanto, overrated, Malta was a nightmare. I just cant recall any. Numerosu Holy Leagues and other organisations failed to put a halt on the Ottomans (atleast not until the later 17th Century) .

Spain despite the wealth of the Americas was bankrupting itself for its part in the Hapsburg Valois conflicts.

I fail to see Spain overcoming the Ottomans. I cant se spain winning in such a struggle.

The Ottomans did not inflict a significant defeat upon Spain either in this case. Only defensive naval victories and the reconquest (which means that they had already been conquered by spain) of some minor territories in north africa.

The two empires never really clashed in a significant war. Spain's nemesis was France and its Italian allies and it also had to cope with protestants or England at times. The Ottoman empire was far often involved in struggles against Austria, Persia or Poland.
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Old November 18th, 2011, 05:48 AM   #25

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As for the battle on lands definitely Ottomans would have smashed the Spaniards, and battle on sea, well, would have been a draw I guess...
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Old November 18th, 2011, 07:05 AM   #26

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Quote:
Originally Posted by clement View Post
The Ottomans did not inflict a significant defeat upon Spain either in this case. Only defensive naval victories and the reconquest (which means that they had already been conquered by spain) of some minor territories in north africa.

The two empires never really clashed in a significant war. Spain's nemesis was France and its Italian allies and it also had to cope with protestants or England at times. The Ottoman empire was far often involved in struggles against Austria, Persia or Poland.


Well not exactly. Full scale war took place in the period 1555-1575. Some of the worst defeats of Spain happened during those years, the worst was the Disaster of Djerba in 1560.



Quote:
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As for the battle on lands definitely Ottomans would have smashed the Spaniards, and battle on sea, well, would have been a draw I guess...
Not be so sure. Land fighting took place in the form of sieges. Many of the most fierce combats of the 16th century involved Spanish Tercio and Turkish Jannisaries: Vienna 1529, Castelnuovo 1539, Malta 1560, Tunis-La Goleta 1574. And many more.

The sieges of Castelnuovo and Tunis-La Goleta, were some of the bloodiest and most vicious fights I've read.

In open field, Turks and Spanish rarely clashed. In 1532 Suleyman tried again against Vienna, but Charles V headed against him with a powerful army that included 10-15 thousand Spaniards. Suleyman retreated though some clashes took places here and there. Also during the 40-50's a Spanish Tercio operated in Hungary and Transylvania, but don't know is some open battle took place. In Alcazarquivir 1578, there were 2,000 Castillian volunteers in the army annihilated by the Muslim army, though the bulk of the fight was carried by the Maghrebian forces.
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Old November 18th, 2011, 07:14 AM   #27

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is this an accurate map of the spanish empire at the time?
Click the image to open in full size.
the question i have is about the holdings in austria-hungary, these i assume were attained true royal marriages yet were spanish troops ever located there or was it all Austrians-Hungarians.

while were on this can someone explain the Habsburg monarchy better to me as usually when i hear the word i think of just the areas in austria-hungary so when did this connection with spain began?
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Old November 18th, 2011, 07:32 AM   #28

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Quote:
Originally Posted by irishcrusader95 View Post
is this an accurate map of the spanish empire at the time?

the question i have is about the holdings in austria-hungary, these i assume were attained true royal marriages yet were spanish troops ever located there or was it all Austrians-Hungarians.
Those are the Patrimonial territories of the Habsburgs. Charles V was the sole Lord of all of them, except Hungary, where his brother Ferdinand was the King. Since the 1520's, Ferdinand was the administrator of the Austrian domains. In 1556 with the abdication of Charles V, he become Emperor and Lord of the eastern Habsburg territories (Austria, Bohemia, Hungary). The western ones went fo Philip II, the missfortune of Spain was that Charles considered the Low Countries could be safer under the protection Philip. Both branchs of the Habsburgs were closed allies during the next 150 years.


The Spanish armies were always involved in the area, due to this close relationship. They were defending Vienna in 1529, again in 1532, during the Smalkalda League war, also a Tercio was fighting beside the Hungarians in the 40-50's, the "Tercio de Aldana". Spanish troops were involved again during the Thirty Years War, their most famous action in the area was the battle of the White Mountain.

Even more important was the financial support from Madrid.
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Old November 18th, 2011, 07:58 AM   #29

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could one so count on some form of support from the other in the event of war, be it financial or military. the two major siege of vienna for instance, did spain send much support form them?
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Old November 18th, 2011, 08:09 AM   #30

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Satuf View Post
The Spanish gained their powerful reputation from conquering who? The Native Americans?

The Ottomans gained their powerful reputation from all the conquests they achieved in Europe, Middle East, and North Africa. Places where nations are actually just as civilised and perhaps even more civilised than the Turks.
Well I don't know about Egypt and Arabia but I think that Byzantium was in decline for ages, literally about to collapse
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