Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Speculative History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Speculative History Speculative History Forum - Alternate History, What If Questions, Pseudo History, and anything outside the boundaries of mainstream historical research


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:16 PM   #11
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Above The Waters
Posts: 278

Quote:
Originally Posted by HackneyedScribe View Post
The Golden Horde might have had many Caucasians as its subjects, but they only made up a small part of the Mongol empire. How "caucasian" the Golden Horde were has nothing to do with the original Mongol invasion.

I say you are studying history for the wrong reason. If you're here to blame Caucasians for the world's ills, then you are better off preaching somewhere else. People should be suspicious of historians who pay an unreasonable amount of attention to "ethnic", "racial" aspects of history. Normal historians probably wouldn't care about things like this.
There are simple facts that indicate mongols were majority caucasian:

1--Western asia where mongols ruled has no genetic traces of mongolian people

2--Dominance of caucasian male and female dna(you can check out DNA map) in central Asia, even thought it is where the most mongolian admixture happens. The mongolian male admixture of central asian is 40% at most, the rest is western asian. The most asian mixed population is the uighurs, still the mongoloid influence is below 50% in general.

The lack of genetic traces in western asia, and minor influence in central asia do not support majority mongolian theory. All the admixtures in western and central asia point to a historical caucasian dominance.
Wadjet Horus is offline  
Remove Ads
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:25 PM   #12

mingming's Avatar
Young, Wild, and Free
 
Joined: Feb 2011
From: Da Bay
Posts: 4,279

I don't see how this has anything to do with the genetic makeup of the Xiongnu.
mingming is offline  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:26 PM   #13
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Above The Waters
Posts: 278

It is obvious there was NO yellow peril, but simply yellow meat.
Wadjet Horus is offline  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:27 PM   #14
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Above The Waters
Posts: 278

Quote:
Originally Posted by mingming View Post
I don't see how this has anything to do with the genetic makeup of the Xiongnu.
Sorry, I posted the wrong link, I edited, check out again.
Wadjet Horus is offline  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:27 PM   #15
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: .
Posts: 4,433

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadjet Horus View Post
Xiongnu was older nomadic confederation, its soldieres genetics indicates close relation to siberian tribes. In nomadic cultures, soldiers are the highest rank in society. The white invaders you are talking about are xianbei from 4-5 centruty AD and nicknamed Bailu, the white looters.

You can try to google the words togather: xianbei bailu

However, xianbei was considered less destructive than mongols.
In the nomadic cultures it was the cavalry who were the hierarchy. I've checked up, xianbei bailu. However all this tells me is there could be the structure at that times as with the Xiongnu(Huns). If you check for other similarities elsewhere, you will find the same with the Yuezhi who would become the Kushan empire. None of this says that the Mongols were Caucasians at the time of Genghis Khan.
The Alani Dragon Rising is offline  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:28 PM   #16

HackneyedScribe's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,480

Quote:
There are simple facts that indicate mongols were majority caucasian:

1--Western asia where mongols ruled has no genetic traces of mongolian people

2--Dominance of caucasian male and female dna(you can check out DNA map) in central Asia, even thought it is where the most mongolian admixture happens. The mongolian admixture of central asian is 50% t most, the rest is western asian. The most asian mixed population is the uighurs, still the mongoloid influence is below 50% in general.

The lack of genetic traces in western asia, and minor influence in central asia do not support majority mongolian theory. All the admixtures in western and central asia point to a historical caucasian dominance.
As I said, people who spend so much time studying genetic aspects on history is probably studying history for the wrong reason. People like these are bound to cherry pick findings. In fact that's precisely what you are doing now. There is no such thing as "Caucasian" DNA in the first place, so what you say is moot. You make it sound like there's some "Caucasian" gene in all Caucasians, or some "Mongoloid" gene in all Mongoloids. Race is just a social construct determined from certain physical characteristics. There is no single gene for it, nor can you determine which "race" has a dominant "admixture" in some region because the concept of race itself is unscientific.
HackneyedScribe is online now  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:37 PM   #17
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Above The Waters
Posts: 278

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Alani Dragon Rising View Post
In the nomadic cultures it was the cavalry who were the hierarchy. I've checked up, xianbei bailu. However all this tells me is there could be the structure at that times as with the Xiongnu(Huns). If you check for other similarities elsewhere, you will find the same with the Yuezhi who would become the Kushan empire. None of this says that the Mongols were Caucasians at the time of Genghis Khan.
Chinese sources did say the mongol were people with colorful eyes, also historical records also say during the mongol rule, average chinese must obey the people with colorful eyes. You may wonder why.

In ancient time, people did not attribute much to the racial features, but military ruler can be exception, it is why persian historian recorded his meeting with Ghengis Khan and his sons in particular and described their appearance. Persian historian may tried to describe Ghengis Khan as mongols representative in culture, race, power.

If anything as there were no sources saying mongols were caucasian, and there were also no sources claiming they were mongoloid.

Last edited by Wadjet Horus; June 13th, 2011 at 08:47 PM.
Wadjet Horus is offline  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:38 PM   #18

Isoroku295's Avatar
Priapus
 
Joined: Jan 2009
From: the solo basement party rocking tonight
Posts: 6,466

This is almost as bad as Chinese being Egyption
Isoroku295 is offline  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:46 PM   #19
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Apr 2010
From: Above The Waters
Posts: 278

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isoroku295 View Post
This is almost as bad as Chinese being Egyption
It is simply truth, why it is bad?

The reth/chief egyptians were painted as the smallest built of all 4 people of Egypt, of course I may enjoy such possibility.
Wadjet Horus is offline  
Old June 13th, 2011, 08:49 PM   #20
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Mar 2011
From: .
Posts: 4,433

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wadjet Horus View Post
Chinese sources did say the mongol were people with colorful eyes, also historical records also say during the mongol rule, average chinese must obey the people with colorful eyes. You may wonder why.

In ancient time, people did not attribute much to the racial features, but military ruler can be exception, it is why persian historian recorded his meeting with Ghengis Khan and his sons in particular and described their appearance. Persian historian may tried to describ Ghengis Khan as mongols representative in culture, race, power.

If anything as there were no sources saying mongols were caucasian, and there were also no sources claiming they were mongoloid.
Ah, yes some Mongols had traits which were passed on, and Genghis Khan himself was reported to have red hair and green eyes. This doesn't make for the majority of Mongols being Caucasian.
The Alani Dragon Rising is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Speculative History

Tags
caucasian, empire, mongol, mongolian, truth


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Similarities between the Mongol Empire and Communist Russia lionmaster General History 20 July 23rd, 2011 03:26 AM
What caused the downfall of the Mongol Empire? Rixy Asian History 14 February 15th, 2011 06:07 AM
Two kinds of truth or two sides of truth? kowalskil Philosophy, Political Science, and Sociology 44 January 19th, 2011 07:38 AM
Mongol Empire remains unified Isoroku295 Speculative History 8 March 11th, 2010 05:50 AM
Mongol Empire - rise and fall salleuxe Medieval and Byzantine History 8 February 28th, 2010 06:54 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.