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Old October 17th, 2011, 12:37 AM   #91

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Well Thanx, ib-issi for the tip on British history. I've been having health problems. [Arthritis] It's really hard to think and concentrate when your in pain. Some of it I agree with, other stuff seems a little far-fetched. [But, I obviously didn't read it all] The only stuff I have read lately is Dodswell and Setterfield, plus a little myth related to the stars. I don't have the strength to delve further into the mysteries of the universe, maybe next year, hopefully ... maybe I can conglomerate my research into a PDF ... but, for now I'm seriously thinking of becoming a medical experiment, lol.

Dodwell Manuscript
Ancient, mediaeval, and modern observations of the obliquity of the Ecliptic, measuring the inclination of the earth's axis, in ancient times and up to the present
by George F. Dodwell B.A., FRAS*

The Movement of the Earth’s Axis of Rotation is Evidence of a Disturbance of the Earth’s Axis in Ancient Times - Preface
The study of latitude variations led George Dodwell to investigate the Obliquity of the Ecliptic (the tilt of the earth’s axis).

This work contained, amongst other things, a list of ancient observations of the obliquity of the ecliptic, made by Thales, about 558 B.C.; Eratosthenes, about 230 B.C.; in his later years, Hipparchus, 135 B.C.; Ptolemy, 126 A.D.; and by several mediaeval astronomers up to the time of Tycho Brahe, 1587 A.D., and of Wendelin himself, 1616 A.D.; together with Wendelin’s theory of the cause of the change which had taken place during the ages up to his own time.

My further searching for ancient and mediaeval observations of the obliquity of the ecliptic resulted in bringing together and analysing a very considerable and valuable series of these observations.

The first curve of these ancient observations, which I drew in the year 1934, showed an unmistakable and progressive abnormality when compared with Newcomb’s formula. A careful study of the observations, and their agreement with the curve at all times and places of observation, showed that it was not due to large errors in the ancient observations. It was therefore very puzzling, as it seemed to indicate some unknown movement of the earth in the past. This could not be a cyclical or continuous periodic movement, for such an explanation would merely repeat the Draysonian paradox, and would be impossible.

The presence of this harmonic sine curve, with its diminishing amplitude, is a marvelous confirmation of the important, and now verified, fact that the earth has gradually been making a partial recovery, during the interval of 4194 years from 2345 B.C., to 1850 A.D., after a sudden large disturbance of its axis in 2345 B.C., and that it reached its present state of completed equilibrium in 1850 A.D.

scripturechronology bible

(Beyond Prophecies & Predictions, Moira Timms)
"If a star map is superimposed over the Earth with the pole star placed over the terrestial North Pole, we have a celestial clock making one revolution daily. The noon point of that map (like Greenwich) is the Great Pyramid of Giza. Thousands of years ago, Egypt was known as the Land of Khem. The Khema were a group of seven major stars (in the constellation of Taurus), known today as the Pleiades. If the map is placed with the Khema over the Land of Khem (Egypt)-specifically, directly over the apex of the Great Pyramid- then Taurus falls over the Taurus Mountains of southern Turkey; Ursa Major, the Great Bear, rambles over Russia; the head of Draco the Dragon coils up over China; Orion (the warrior) over Iran/Iraq; Aries the Ram over Rome, and Capricorn (identified with the god Pan) falls over Panama, Panuco, and Mayapan (the old name of the Yucatan). Aquila the Eagle spans the United States. The analogies are obvious, and quite impressive. This is one of the clearest examples of the law of 'As Above, and So Below.'"

See-ya! next year ... cheers to historum !!
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Old October 17th, 2011, 10:39 AM   #92

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Sorry to hear , you are not feeling great K.C.K. , I really hope those Doc's can patch you up. Thanks for all those Ti, Ta, Tye references during August .

Keep on with your Ecliptic angle , i reckon when it was all put together in the beginning it was 360 days , 12 months of 30 days, all divisions of the gods counting system of 60 , and some disaster altered the true poles , and slowed the planet by 5 days , good luck ,and get better soon .
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Old December 12th, 2011, 11:42 PM   #93

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I was going over some of my old notes, and looking at the Phyrgians and Scythians, also the ancient name of Khema as a land of Egypt seemed to keep popping up. So, I'm putting the Caucus region stuff here, and the Land of Khem stuff in this Blog ->


The History of Herodotus By Herodotus Translated by George Rawlinson

On the opposite side of the Gerrhus is the Royal district, as it is called: here dwells the largest and bravest of the Scythian tribes, which looks upon all the other tribes in the light of slaves. Its country reaches on the south to Taurica, on the east to the trench dug by the sons of the blind slaves, the mart upon the Palus Maeotis, called Cremni (the Cliffs), and in part to the river Tanais.

Gerrus (province) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gerrus was a small, muntainous province of Iran, situated between Zanjan and Azarbaijan in the north, and Kurdistan and Hamadan in the south. Its capital was Bijar. Gerrus is now incorporated within Zanjan and Kurdistan Provinces.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bijar]Bijar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
The majority of the inhabitants of Bijar are Kurds. Bijar is known internationally for its elegant and ancient carpet and rug designs. The term bijar could be a variation of bajar (i.e city in Kurdish) and the complete name of the city is Bijar-e Garrus (city of Garrus).

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurica]Taurica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chersonesus_Taurica]Chersonesus Taurica - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Taurica, Tauric Chersonese, and Taurida were names by which the territory of Crimea was known to the Greeks and Romans.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov]Sea of Azov - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
In antiquity, it was known as Lake Mśotis, the Maeotian Lake or the Maeotian Sea (Latin Palus Maeotis), after the tribe of Maeotae which inhabited the Maeotian marshes to the east from the sea. In the antique epoch, locals called the sea Temerinds.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes]Medes - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
The Medes were subsequently able to establish their Median kingdom (with Ecbatana [Hamedan] as their royal centre) beyond their original homeland (central-western Iran) and had eventually a territory stretching roughly from northeastern Iran to the Halys River in Anatolia.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanais]Tanais - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Tanais is the ancient name for the River Don in Russia. Strabo (Geography 11.1) regarded it as the boundary between Europe and Asia. In antiquity, Tanais was also the name of a city in the Don river delta (Maeotian marshes) that reaches into the northeasternmost part of the Sea of Azov, which the Greeks called Lake Maeotis.

TANAIS : River god of Scythia ; Greek mythology
The Tanais River flowed through the eastern steppeland of Skythia, issuing into the Palus Maeotis (Sea of Azov), in the north-eastern corner of the Black Sea. The most important neighbouring rivers were the Borysthenes (Dnieper) in the west, and the Phasis of Kolkhis to the south.

These are some of the references I was using to determine some of this stuff ...

More Astonishing Bible Proof - (Warning -Athiests- This Is Adult Sensitive Material)? - Christianity Board Christian Forum - Page 5
The Trojan War - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums - Page 20
John R. Salverda: "Helleno-Yishurin. The Hebrew Origin of Greek Legends"
The Exodus as the Myth of Perseus (Part II) - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums
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Old December 26th, 2011, 02:11 AM   #94

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Some good stuff here about Normans, Varangians, Kieven-Rus, even Frisii ...
Kings chosen from another branch of rulership: like Trojan/Meoeian [like], Moab?/Edom, Rox?Alani, Angles/Saxons[like], etc ...
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Old December 30th, 2011, 11:19 AM   #96

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These Celtic Holidays go with the Roman Holidays, but I don't wanna develop it further at this time ... So I'm dumping it here. And some Pharaoh's of the Bible stuff ...

Here's the rest of the series ... plus a few more later

December 25th

A Definitive Work on Sol in Vinter - The Roman Festivals

A Definitive Work on Sol in Vinter - Satyr-Nail-ia

A Definitive Work on Sol in Vinter - The Misrule of Saturn

A Definitive Work on Sol in Vinter - The Roman Religion


© 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
One of the most important of the Celtic holidays, later to influence Halloween customs, was Samhain. Among the Celts, Samhain marked the end of one year and the beginning of the next. It was one of four Celtic holidays linked to important transitions in the annual cycle of seasons.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imbolc]Imbolc - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Imbolc, Imbolg or St Brigid’s Day marks the beginning of spring. Beginning in February, which falls halfway between the Winter Solstice and the Spring Equinox in the northern hemisphere. A significance of the date of Imbolc in the Irish Neolithic period has been suggested on the Newgrange UNESCO World Heritage website, based on the arrangement of a number of Megalithic monuments, such as the Mound of the Hostages at the Hill of Tara. At this site in County Meath the inner chamber of the passage tomb is aligned with the rising sun on the dates of Imbolc and Samhain.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beltane]Beltane - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Beltane, the Gaelic name for either the month of May or the festival that takes place on the first day of May. Bealtaine and Samhain were the leading terminal dates of the civil year in medieval Ireland, though the latter festival was the more important. The festival regained popularity during the Celtic Revival and remains observed in the Celtic Nations and the Irish diaspora. Bealtaine is considered a cross-quarter day, marking the midpoint in the Sun's progress between the spring equinox and summer solstice. The astronomical date for this midpoint is closer to 5 May or 7 May, but this can vary from year to year.

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lughnasadh]Lughnasadh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Lughnasadh is a traditional Gaelic holiday celebrated on 1 August. It is in origin a harvest festival, a festival corresponding to it may have been observed by the Gauls at least up to the first century; on the Coligny calendar, the eighth day of the first half of the month Edrinios, is marked with the inscription TIOCOBREXTIO that identifies other major feasts. The same date was later adopted for the meeting of all the representatives of Gaul at the Condate Altar in Gallo-Roman times. During the reign of Augustus Caesar the Romans instituted a celebration on August 1 to the genius of the emperor in Lyon, capital of Roman Gaul. Lyon derives from the Latinized Gaulish word "Lugdunum", literally "Lugh's (Lug) fortress (dunon)".

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samhain]Samhain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Samhain harvest festival held on October 31–November 1 was linked to festivals held around the same time in other Celtic cultures, and was popularised as the "Celtic New Year" from the late 19th century, following John Rhys and James Frazer. The date of Samhain was associated with the Catholic All Saints' Day (and later All Souls' Day) from at least the 8th century. The medieval Irish festival of Samhain marked the end of the harvest, the end of the "lighter half" of the year and beginning of the "darker half". It was celebrated over the course of several days and had some elements of a Festival of the Dead. Bonfires played a large part in the festivities. People and their livestock would often walk between two bonfires as a cleansing ritual.


A Cyclical History of the World From the Flood of Ogyges until the Event at Tunguska1 By Stephen E Franklin
Part I: Alignment of Hebrew, Egyptian, and Assyrian Chronologies. Introduction: The Patriarchs and the Pharaohs

As Freud says, "In the best period of the 'New Empire' the main god of the city of Thebes is called Amon-Re, in which combination the first part signifies the ram-headed city-god, whereas Re is the name of the hawk-headed sun-god of On." Now it is precisely Joseph, the half-brother of Levi, supposedly the great-grandfather of Moses, who is given in marriage by the Pharaoh (whichever one that may be), Asanath, the daughter of Potiphera, a priest of On (which the Greeks called Heliopolis). According to Manetho in the version quoted by Josephus, Moses himself was born at Heliopolis where he became a priest under the Osirian name "Osarsiph" and only later changed his name to "Moses." Manetho should know. He himself was a priest at Heliopolis. Josephus further relates a story from Cheremon that calls Moses, the scribe "Tisithen" and Joseph, the sacred scribe "Peteseph." The Scriptures have Joseph appointed viceroy of all Egypt under the name Zaphnath-paaneah:

Classical and Biblical Records Identifying The Phoenicians
The “Phoenicians” made many settlements in Greece at an early time, nearly as early as the conquest of Canaan itself, namely in Boeotia and Thessaly, in addition to the islands. The largest was named Thebes. Cadmus “the Phoenician” and Danaus “the Egyptian” were even said to have left for Greece from Egypt at the same time that Moses led the Israelites in the Exodus (Diodorus Siculus 40.3.1-3), a myth which certainly holds elements of truth. There is evidence both circumstantial and linguistic (from the Egyptian names for them) that the “Sea Peoples” who invaded Egypt in the late 13th century were actually a group of confederate Israelite and Philistine tribes


Elim - Possibly, 'Place of Terebinths.' This is usually identified with Wadi Gharandel, the next oasis on this route, some 10 miles south of Marah. In medieval times, there was a city in this area known as Ailom (Mas'aoth Rabbi Binyamin 24). Some say that this was a very good resting place (Mekhilta), while according to others, the trees and wells were insufficient for the huge number of people (Josephus 3:1:3).

Numbers 33:9 Then they came to Elim. Here there were twelve springs of water and seventy date palms. They [then] camped by the water.

IBSS - Biblical Archaeology - Evidence of the Exodus from Egypt
Amenhotep II - the son of Thutmose III who ruled Egypt from 1453-19 BC There are three known military campaigns into the land of Canaan (Aharoni 1979, 166). The lists of prisoners gives a cross-section of the population at that time. Aharoni states: The first group included 550 maryannu (noble chariot warriors), 240 of their wives, 640 Canaanites, 232 royal sons, 323 royal daughters and 270 concubines. A final summary lists: 127 rulers of Retenu, 179 brothers of the rulers, 3600 'apiru, 15,200 living Shasu, 36,300 Huru, 15,070 living Neges, and 30,652 families thereof.... Among the residents of Palestine the Horites account for 66 per cent, the Shasu 27.5 per cent and the 'apiru 6.5 per cent (1979, 168-9; Lemche 1991, 43-46). The Israelites have been associated with both the 'apiru and the Shasu (Akkadian Shutu). Some scholars think the name "Hebrew" came from "'apiru."

Amenhotep III - In the temple of Amon in Soleb (Nubia) there is a topographical list from the time of Amenhotep III (1408-1372 BC). In column IV.A2 is written t3 ssw yhw3 which means "Yahweh of the land of the Shasu" (Giveon 1964, 244; Redford 1992, 272; Astour 1979, 17-34). In the ancient Near East a divine name was also was given to a geographical place where the god was worshipped (Axelsson 1987, 60). This is the first clear extra-biblical evidence of the name "Yahweh." The land of the Shasu may be the same area as the Midianites in the Bible where Moses stayed for 40 years (Axelsson 1987, 61; Giveon 1964a, 415-16).

The Shasu were Bedouins who led a nomadic existence. "Shasu" was a general term the Egyptians used to describe any Bedouins East of the Delta. The Egyptians would define certain Shasu according to their location. For example there are the Shasu of Edom (ANET 1969, 259). The word "Shasu" became in Coptic shos meaning "shepherd" (ANET 1969, 259 note 2). It may be that the Israelites when they were wandering in the desert were probably grouped with the Shasu by the Egyptians. Giveon points out marked similarities between the Shasu and the Hebrews (1967, 193-196; Bietak 1987, 169). When they came out of the desert and into the hill country of Palestine, they were probably called Hapiru as in the El Amarna letters instead of Shasu.

The kings of the 19th Dynasty identified themselves with the Hyksos religious tradition of worshipping the god Seth (Baal) whom Seti (Seth's Man) was named after. In 1320 BC Seti celebrated the 400th year of the reign of Seth, and the beginning of the Hyksos rule (1720 BC). Ramese II (1279 BC) set up a 7.2 foot high granite monument called "Stele of the Year 400" at Avaris which he renamed Pi-Ramese, "House of Ramese" (ANET 1969, 252-3; Breasted 1988, 3:238-42; McCarter 1996, 46-7). This founding of the Hyksos rule is most likely alluded to in Numbers 13:22 which says, "Now Hebron was built seven years before Zoan (Avaris) in Egypt" (KJV; Mazar 1986, 21; Albright 1957, 242). In Seti's first campaign there is a battle with the Shasu which is pictured on the Karnak reliefs (ANEP 1969, fig. 323-9). The tribal chiefs of the Shasu are gathered on the mountains of kharu (upper Galilee) to fight the Egyptians. It says: The foe belonging to the Shasu are plotting (5) rebellion. Their tribal chiefs are gathered in one place, waiting on the mountain ranges of Kharu. They have taken to clamoring and quarreling, one of them killing his fellow. They have no regard for the laws of the palace (ANET 1969, 254; Breasted 1988, 3:52).

A stele of Seti I discovered at Beth-Shean states that the Hapiru from Mount Yarumta with the Tayaru attacked the Asiatics of Rehem (ANET 1969, 255; Rowe 1929, 88-93). Mount Yarumta is probably Jarmuth of the tribe Issachar (Joshua 21:29). It seems that the tribe of Issachar is already in Canaan by this time (1303 BC; Aharoni 1982, 124). Breasted concluded that these Shasu (Bedwin) are the same as the Hapiru of the El Amarna letters. He says, "The attempt of the Hebrews to gain a footing in Palestine is undoubtedly involved in the larger movement of the Bedwin, which Seti here records" (1988, 50).
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Old December 30th, 2011, 11:46 AM   #97

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I am just starting to get into this whole sea people thing.

I've read they were basically phoeneicans. They had the largest fleets during that era correct?

Then there was Carthage, which the Romans destroyed, they were the "Sea Peoples" weren't they?

I am asking because I don't know.
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Old December 30th, 2011, 02:06 PM   #98

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[Were the] sea people basically [the] phoeneicans? They had the largest fleets during that era correct? Then there was Carthage, which the Romans destroyed, they were the "Sea Peoples" weren't they?
Well Phoenician could be ascribed to a much later era in terms of establishment, but historians and the Bible writers also use these terms ... they were the proto-phoenicians.

The Hyksos departure from Egypt which lasted several centuries after several centuries of there rule created the divisions of "nation-hood" among the nations surrounding the coasts of the eastern mediterranean climaxing at the Trojan War and solidifying about 1000 BC. This period of history, though fairly well documented, remains stooped in the myth of its time, the "players" can get a bit confusing.

The Carthaginians were a portion of the descendants of these people the Phoencians through Dido presumably, who developed later as the most well-known colony of the Phoenicians.

evolution vs. creationism - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums - Page 22
The "People of the Sea" show up in history before there trek to Egypt. The name "Pelest" (meaning "Sea People") were known by that name in before 1187 BC when they attacked Egypt. Sorry, the Philistines were just 1 of at least 8 other sea people races, more than likely more. Which included the ...

1). Danuna - seem to be identified with Danaean Greeks. Although the Danuna are known from many different sources, they were a major part of the confederation that attacked Egypt with the other group of Sea People. The origins of the Danuna are many.

Biblical data shows that at a certain stage of its settlement the Tribe of Dan was very close to the People of the Sea. From the historical and mythological sources, it is possible to ascertain the following facts. The tribe of the Danai originated in the east, and the introduction of the alphabet to Greece is attributed to it. Its members were outstanding seamen who had special connection with sun worship. The association with the Tribe of Dan is because their was two different tribes (the Danites and the Danai) with identical names and similar characteristics which operated in the same geographical region and period or there is a link between the tribe of Dan and the tribe of Danai, and possibly a certain measure of identity (Yadin 1968: 22).

2). Karkisa - The Hittite record of the Karkisa reinforces the idea that the Hittites and Karkisa were allied at the time. In the annals of Mursilis, The geographical location of the Karkisa people is based on their relation to the land of the Lukka. Redford (1993: 249) places the Karkisa in southwest Asia Minor, and Barnett places them in the same area. Barnett mentions specifically that the Karkisa are associated with the Hittite area of Caria, which is on the south-western tip of Anatolia (Barnett 1975: 361).

3). Labu - If the Labu are from the west of Libya, then it seems strange to associate them so closely with the Sea Peoples. The Labu are characterized by a number of features when they are depicted in Egyptian reliefs, such as fair skin, red hair, and blue eyes. Some of these characteristics the Labu also shared with the Meshwesh, but unlike the Meshwesh the Labu wore kilts instead of loincloths and were uncircumcised (Gardiner 1968: 122).

4). Lukka - (perhaps the ancestors of the Lycians) who may have come from the Lycian region of Anatolia. The Lycians had a series of kingdoms, called Arzawa lands, which were run by the Hittites (Bryce 1986:3). According to Hittite texts the Lukka were a rebellious people and easily swayed by foreign influences. These Hittite texts state that the Lukka are sea-goers. They made yearly attacks on the King of Alasiya and his lands by sea, and did so effectively, and so were considered pirates in this way.

5). Meshwesh - or Ekwesh who seem to be identified with the Homeric Achaean. The Meshwesh are again found in the Classical writings of Herodotus, over a thousand years later. Herodotus describes their semi-barbaric hairstyle consisting of shaving one side of the head while leaving the other and the fact that they paint their bodies and lay claim to Trojan heritage (Selincourt 1954: 306). He goes on to talk about the land from which they came (eastern Libya), all the while making sure to guard himself by saying that he cannot vouch for any of these statements, he is merely passing along what he himself has heard. These are the two major sources for description, both physical and cultural, for the Meshwesh. They are initially identified in Egyptian battle records as having fought alongside the Libyans and their allies, but also recognized as having risen to their own respective seat of power following these skirmishes. The fact that they are again specifically singled out by Herodotus in his Histories serves notice to the fact that they were indeed a significant socio-political entity in the Eastern Mediterranean at this time.

6). Shardana - Sherden or SarDANians - feared as pirates They are depicted both among the Sea Peoples and as allies of the Egyptians, distinguished by their horned helmets with a ball projecting from the middle, round shields, and large swords (Gardiner 1968: 196-7). According to Dr. Donald Redford, the Shardana can be equated with the Sardonians of the classical era, a people from the Ionian coast who were skilled in fighting (1992: 243). A battle between the Phocaeans and the Sardonians is recorded in Herodotus' History, book I, 165, in which we are told that the Sardonians were a formidable naval force. In the 14th-13th centuries BCE, the Shardana also had a reputation as pirates, and it is possible that their success in this occupation provided one of the motivations for the activities of other groups of Sea Peoples. However, this idea is tied to the theory that the primary factor in the Late Bronze Age-Iron Age transition was massive pillaging and piracy on the part of certain groups in the Aegean (Redford 1992: 244). [Seems Highly Likely]

7). Shekelesh, Shekresh, Sikeloi - Sicilians the Shekelesh (and the Teresh) wear cloth headdresses and a medallion on their breasts, and carry two spears and a round shield; their place of origin has been considered to be Sagalassos in Pisidia" (Redford 1992: 252).Some scholars, such as N.K. Sandars, believe that the Shekelesh came from southeastern Sicily.In the 8th century, Greek colonists came across a group of people known as the Sikels on the island, which they believed had come from Italy after the Trojan War (Sandars 1985: 112).The Medinet Habu relief depicts a Shekelesh prince, who is shown bearded, with a thin prominent nose and a swept back turban, which some scholars believe to be (long) hair. [Illyrians and Dodanians probably fall in here somewhere]

8). Teresh (Tursha or Tyrshenoi - possibly the Tyrrhenians, the Greek name for the Etruscans; or from the western Anatolian Taruisa)

9). Tjakkar - (Tjekker, Chieftain (lit. the Great One) of the foe of Thekel (TAkwrA). which were settled in Dor according to the Tale of Wenamen. Redfords (1992: 251-52) conclusions from the reliefs at Medinet Habu also suggest a connection to the Aegean. He notes the ships identified as Tjakkkr are more in the Aegean style than any other. The Tjakkar warriors are depicted in what he calls Hoplite-like plumes on their helmets, often identified as Greek. The Tjakkar warriors fight with short, straight swords, long spears, and rounded shields, Aegean style equipment. Archeological evidence from Dor supports Wen-Amons claim of Tjakkar settlement. In addition, the excavations found cow scapulae and bone-handled iron knives similer to those found at Philistine sites. The origins of the Tjakkar people suggest they came from, or shared a culture with the people of the Aegean.

The most northern Phoenician city was on the island of Arwad, also known as Arvad and Arados [Argos-East]. It had been taken from the Phoenicians prior to the coming of the Sea Peoples and was being held by the Hittites. This city was in fact destroyed by the Sea Peoples and after their incursion it was returned to the Phoenicians. This destruction, far from disproving the current assertion, adds to the view that the Phoenicians were accorded a special status [commercial] in the events of this time. [Like the Hapiru, Shasu, Pateru were accorded different "status"]

Based upon the sum of this evidence, we can only conclude that observations of the Phoenician cites being undamaged during this time, and having been accorded a special status by the invaders, have been verified. That there was a relationship or partnership of some nature between the Sea Peoples and the Phoenicians is clearly in evidence. The Sea Peoples had forcefully cleared away the old powers from the Mediterranean and left freshly plowed ground. In time the Greeks and Romans would rise and they—together with the often overlooked Phoenicians would sow the seeds of Western civilization.

Jer 47:4 Because of the day that cometh to spoil all the Philistines, and to cut off from Tyrus and Zidon every helper that remaineth: for the LORD will spoil the Philistines, the remnant of the country of Caphtor.

Amo 9:7 Have not I brought up Israel out of the land of Egypt? and the Philistines from Caphtor, and the Syrians from Kir (Caria)?

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Old January 7th, 2012, 02:41 PM   #99

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This has to do with the Egyptian Pharoahs of the Bible thread plus these 2 posts, I don't know where to put it so I'll put it here ... ^

Horus and Jesus similar?

Enslavement Of Jews and The Bible

Click the image to open in full size.Click the image to open in full size. Click the image to open in full size.

Taurus - Crystalinks
The Apis Bull was the most important of all the sacred animals in ancient Egypt. He was called the 'Renewal of the Life of Ptah'. After death he became the Osiris Apis.

Classical and Biblical Records Identifying The Phoenicians

Palestine, the history of the region has been distorted not only due to the incorrect identification of the ancient inhabitants, but also due to its politicization resulting from ‘zionism’ and the arab-jewish conflict of recent decades. The jews have controlled the archaeology of the region very tightly, especially since the 1960’s. Typically, whatever archaeological discovery which suits the jewish view of ancient Israel is labeled as Israelite, while anything which does not appear to be jewish is considered to be Canaanite, Hittite, or Philistine, et al. An example of this is found in a review of Dan II. A Chronicle of the Excavations and the Late Bronze Age “Mycenaean” Tomb in the journal Near Eastern Archaeology, 67:3 (2004), p. 176, where it is evident that the authors of this study of the findings at Tel Dan in Palestine are quite oblivious to the fact that the Mycenaean (Danae) Greeks and the Israelite tribe of Dan were indeed one and the same people. It would not suit the jews to discover that this branch of the “Indo-European”, Aryan Greeks were indeed Hebrews.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atargatis"]Atargatis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Atargatis, in Aramaic ‘Atar‘atah, was a Syrian deity [Her consort is usually Hadad], "great goddess of northern Syria", "the great mistress of the North Syrian lands" Rostovtseff called her, commonly known to the ancient Greeks by a shortened form of the name, Aphrodite Derceto or Derketo and as Dea Syria, "Goddess of Syria". her chief sanctuary was at Hierapolis (modern Manbij), northeast of Aleppo, occasionally rendered in one word Deasura. Primarily she was a goddess of fertility, but, as the baalat (“mistress”) of her city and people, she was also responsible for their protection and well-being.

At Ugarit, cuneiform tablets attest a fecund "Lady Goddess of the Sea" (rabbatu at̪iratu yammi), as well as three Canaanite goddesses — Anat, Asherah and Ashtart — who shared many traits and might be worshipped in conjunction or separately during 1500 years of cultural history.

At Hierapolis Bambyce, on coins of about the 4th century BCE, the legend tr‘th appears, for 'Atar'ate, and tr‘th mnbgyb in a Nabataean inscription; at Kafr Yassif near Akko an altar is inscribed "to Adado and Atargatis, the gods who listen to prayer", The full name ‘tr‘th appears on a bilingual inscription found in Palmyra.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashteroth_Karnaim"]Ashteroth Karnaim - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Ashteroth Karnaim was a city in the land of Bashan east of the Jordan River, mentioned in Genesis 14:5 and Joshua 12:4 (where it is rendered solely as Ashteroth). The name translates literally to 'Ashteroth of the Horns', with 'Ashteroth' being a Canaanite fertitility goddess and 'horns' being symbolic of mountain peaks. It is possibly the same as Carnaim in First Maccabees and Carnion in Second Maccabees.

Al Churak is a modern site for Ashteroth-Karnaim proposed by Astori, being eight miles northeast of ancient ruins known as 'Draš'. Al Mizrib is an ancient fortress in this area that is supported by other archaeologists as being the ancient site of Ashteroth-Karnaim.

In many cases Atargatis, ‘Ashtart, and other goddesses who once had independent cults and mythologies became fused to such an extent as to be indistinguishable. This fusion is exemplified by the Carnion temple, which is probably identical with the famous temple of ‘Ashtart at Ashtaroth-Karnaim.

Bible Map: Ashteroth-karnaim
ash'-ta-roth, as'-ta-roth (`ashtaroth; the King James Version Astaroth; Astaroth, the city of Og, king of Bashan (Deuteronomy 14, etc.); `ashteroth qarnayim, the scene of the defeat of the Rephaim by Chedorlaomer (Genesis 14:5): (be`eshterah) a Levitical city in Manasseh East of the Jordan (Joshua 21:27)): The name probably means "house" or "temple of Ashtoreth." It is identical with Ashtaroth of 1 Chronicles 6:71. Ashtaroth is the plural of ASHTORETH (which see). The name denotes a place associated with the worship of this goddess. Ashteroth-karnaim is mentioned only once in canonical Scripture unless we accept Gratz's restoration, when Karnaim appears as a city taken by Israel: "Have we not taken to us horns (qarnayim) by our own strength?" (Amos 6:13). It is identical with Carnion or Carnaim of 1 and 2 Maccabees, a city of Gilead with a temple of Atar-gatis. The name Ashtaroth has been identified with Astertu in the lists of Tahutmes III of the XVIIIth Egyptian Dynasty; and with Ashtarti of the Tell el-Amarna Letters. Its claim to antiquity is therefore well established.

An Egyptian inscription, found by Schumacher, proves the stone to be a monument of the time of Rameses II. At the foot of the hill is pointed out the bath of Job. In el-Merkez the building known as Deir 'Ayyub, "Monastery of Job," is now part of the barracks. There is also shown the tomb of Job. The stream which flows southward past Tell `Ashtara, is called Moyet en-Neby 'Ayyub, "stream of the prophet Job," and is said to have risen where the patriarch stamped his foot on his recovery.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashan"]Bashan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Bashan or Basan (the light soil) is a biblical place first mentioned in Genesis 14:5, where it is said that Chedorlaomer and his confederates "smote the Rephaim in Ashteroth", where Og the king of Bashan had his residence. At the time of Israel's entrance into the Promised Land, Og came out against them, but was utterly routed (Numbers 21:33-35; Deuteronomy 3:1-7). This country extended from Gilead in the south to Hermon in the north, and from the Jordan river on the west to Salcah on the east. Along with the half of Gilead it was given to the half-tribe of Manasseh (Joshua 13:29-31). Golan, one of its cities, became a city of refuge (Joshua 21:27).

According to the Bible, the Israelites invaded Bashan and conquered it from the Amorites. Dt 3:1: "Next we turned and went up along the road toward Bashan, and Og king of Bashan with his whole army marched out to meet us in battle at Edrei." Dt 3:2:

Devarim (parsha) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The midrash taught that Og was the refuse among the Rephaim, like a hard olive that escapes being mashed in the olive press. The midrash inferred this from Genesis 14:13, which reports that “there came one who had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew,” and the midrash identified the man who had escaped as Og, as Deuteronomy 3:11 describes him as a remnant, saying, “only Og king of Bashan remained of the remnant of the Rephaim.” The midrash taught that Og intended that Abram should go out and be killed. God rewarded Og for delivering the message by allowing him to live all the years from Abraham to Moses, but God collected Og’s debt to God for his evil intention toward Abraham by causing Og to fall by the hand of Abraham’s descendants.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_Apocryphon"]Genesis Apocryphon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
The Genesis Apocryphon, originally called the Apocalypse of Lamech and labeled 1QapGen, is one of the original seven Dead Sea Scrolls discovered in Cave 1 near Qumran in the West Bank. Composed in Aramaic, this document consists of four sheets of leather, and is the least well preserved document of the original seven.

For twelve years they had paid their tribute to the king of Elam, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled against him. And in the fourteenth year, the king of Elam placed himself at the head of all his allies and went up by the Way of the Wilderness; and they smote and pillaged from the river Euphrates onward. They smote the Rephaim who were at Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zamzummim who were at Ammon, the Emim who were at Shaveh ha-Keriyyoth, and the Horites who were in the mountains of Gebal, until they came to El Paran which is in the Wilderness. Before these days, Kedorlaomer, king of Elam, had set out with Amraphel, king of Babylon, Arioch, king of Kaptok, and Tidal, king of the nations which lie between the rivers; and they had waged war against Bera, king of Sodom, all these had made ready for battle in the valley of Siddim.

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Psalm - Chapter 78 - Verse 27 - Treasury of David on StudyLight.org
Verse 27, 31. If the cemetery on Sarbut el Khadem be, what all the antecedent evidences combine to indicate [it is] the workmanship of the Israelites, (a chief burial ground of their fatal encampment at Kibroth Hattaayah).

With the Kheta compare the Chatti referred to by Tacitus, and the ---- of Strabo. What is the origin of the name Hit on the Euphrates? [The Chatti, or Catti, are said to have taken their name from "the old German word cat or cad, 'war' ": see Smith's Class. Dic. The Kheta seem to owe their name to the word Kheth, an inclosure (fenced or fortified), comp. the Egyptian Khetam; and Khatem, which is the ring for the finger, in Heb. ----. The well-known site, Sarbut el Khadem, in the SinaÔtic peninsula, owes its name (says Dr. Ebers) to the old Egyptian fortress (Khetam): Durch Gosen, 574. The archaic Hebrew, Phoenician, and Moabite form of the letter --- (Kheth) bears witness to its origin in the ground-plan of a square fortress. Mr. Gladstone identifies the Kheta with the Keteioi of the Odyssey (Hom. Synchr. 175), but I cannot answer for the Khettaioi of Strabo.-- H. G. T.]

The Hebrew Red Sea Crossing (Exodus)
"Among many things believed respecting the temple and inhabitants of Jerusalem, the report most credited is that the Egyptians were the ancestors of the present Jews. An Egyptian priest named Moses, who possessed a portion of the country called lower Egypt, being dissatisfied with the institutions there, left it and came to Judea with a large body of people who worshipped the Divinity." (Strabo, Geography, lib. xvi., c.2). [63BC-24AD]

Diodorus Siculus, Greek Historian from Sicily living from 80 BC to approximately 15 BC (20 years before Christ's birth in AD 5 or 6) wrote,

"In ancient times there happened a great plague in Egypt, and many ascribed the cause of it to God, who was offended with them because there were many strangers in the land, by whom foreign rites and ceremonies were employed in their worship of the deity. The Egyptians concluded; therefore, that unless all strangers were driven out of the country, they should never be freed from their miseries."

Upon this, some writers tell us, the most eminent and enterprising of those foreigners who were in Egypt, and obliged to leave the country...who retired into the province now called Judea, which was not far from Egypt, and in those times uninhabited. These emigrants were led by Moses, who was superior to all in wisdom and prowess. He gave them laws, and ordained that they should have no images of the gods, because there was only one deity, the heaven, which surrounds all things, and is Lord of the whole." (Diodorus Siculul, Library of History, lib. 1., ap Phot.)

Herodotus [c. 484-425 BC], in Polymnia. section c.89 wrote:

"This people (the Israelites), by their own account, inhabited the coasts of the Red Sea, but migrated thence to the maritime parts of Syria, all which district, as far as Egypt, is denominated Palestine."

[ruler(s) or prince(s)]
05387 aysn nasiy' naw-see' or asn nasi' naw-see'
from 05375; TWOT-1421b, 1421c; n m
AV-prince 96, captain 12, chief 10, ruler 6, vapours 3, governor 1, chief + 05387 1, clouds 1, part 1, prince + 05387 1; 132 [instances]
1) one lifted up, chief, prince, captain, leader
2) rising mist, vapour

Exodus By C. Houtman
Exodus - C. Houtman - Google Books

[prince] is usually derived from [05387, 05375] taken to mean 'one who is exalted' or 'one who exalts himself (above others)' ... The term basically denotes a tribal head, a sheik, one who exercises authority over a tribe, a clan, or even land.

Genesis 17:20 And as for Ishmael ... I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Genesis 23:5-6 And the children of Heth answered Abraham, saying unto him, Hear us, my lord: thou art a mighty prince among us.
Genesis 25:16 These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations.
Genesis 34:1-2 And when Shechem the son of Hamor the Hivite, prince of the country, saw [Dinah], he took her, and lay with her, and defiled her.
Numbers 25:16-18 The LORD spoke unto Moses, Vex the Midianites ... For they vex you with their wiles ... they have beguiled you in the matter of Peor [with] Cozbi, the daughter of a prince of Midian.

Joshua 13:21-22 And all the cities of the plain, and all the kingdom of Sihon king of the Amorites, which reigned in Heshbon, whom Moses smote with the princes of Midian, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, which were dukes of Sihon, dwelling in the country. Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, did the children of Israel slay with the sword among them that were slain by them. [sounds familiar Asteroth-Karnaim]

[It is also used in the same sense in Exodus]

Exodus 16:22 And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
Exodus 22:28 Thou shalt not revile the gods [judges], nor curse the ruler of thy people.
Exodus 34:31 And Moses called unto them; and Aaron and all the rulers of the congregation.
Exodus 35:27 And the rulers brought onyx stones, and stones to be set, for the ephod, and for the breastplate;

Other data in the Pentateuch make[s] it likely that the shieks mentioned here are the twelve tribal heads

Numbers 1:4 And with you there shall be a man of every tribe; every one head of the house of his fathers.
Numbers 1:16 These were the renowned of the congregation, princes of the tribes of their fathers, heads of thousands in Israel.
Numbers 1:44 These are those that .... Moses and Aaron numbered, and the princes of Israel, being twelve men: each one was for the house of his fathers.
Numbers 2:3 [East toward the rising sun shall they set the standard of the camp of Judah and their armies: and Nahshon the son of Amminadab shall be captain]
Numbers 4:34 Moses and Aaron and the chief of the congregation numbered the sons of the Kohathites after their families, and after the house of their fathers.

The descendants of Kohath. They formed the first of the three divisions of the Levites #Ex 6:16,18 Nu 3:17 In the journeyings of the Israelites they had the charge of the most holy portion of the vessels of the tabernacle, including the ark #Nu 4:1ff. Their place in the marching and encampment was south of the tabernacle #Nu 3:29,31 Their numbers at different times are specified #Nu 3:28 4:36 26:57,62 Samuel was of this division.

Numbers 7:2 The princes of Israel, heads of the house of their fathers ... the princes of the tribes [that] were over them that were numbered, offered: [gifts for the tabernacle]
Numbers 7:10 And the princes offered for dedicating the altar in the day that it was anointed, even the princes offered their offering before the altar.
Numbers 10:4 And if they blow but with one trumpet, then the princes, who are heads of the thousands of Israel, shall assemble themselves to thee.
Numbers 27:2 They stood before Moses and ... Eleazar the priest, and ... the princes, and all the congregation, by the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
Numbers 31:13 And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
Numbers 34:18 And ye shall take one prince of every tribe, to divide the land by inheritance.
Numbers 36:1 The chief fathers of the families of the children of Gilead, the son of Machir, the son of Manasseh, of the families of the sons of Joseph, came near, and spoke before Moses, and before the princes, the chief fathers of the children of Israel:

Joshua 9:15 And Joshua made peace with them, and made a league with them, to let them live: and the princes of the congregation swore to them.
Joshua 9:18 The princes of the congregation had sworn to them by the LORD God of Israel. And all the congregation murmured against the princes.
Joshua 9:19 But all the princes said to all the congregation, We have sworn to them by the LORD God of Israel: now therefore we may not touch them.
Joshua 9:21 The princes said to them, Let them live; but let them be hewers of wood, and drawers of water to all the congregation; as the princes had promised.
Joshua 17:4 [Half-Manessah] came ... before Eleazar the priest and ... Joshua the son of Nun, and before the princes, saying, The LORD commanded Moses to give us an inheritance among our brethren.

Joshua 22:14 With him ten princes, of each chief house a prince throughout all the tribes of Israel; and each one was a head of the house of their fathers among the 1000s of Israel.
Joshua 22:30 When Phinehas the priest, and the princes of the congregation, and heads of the thousands of Israel who were with him, heard the words that the children of Reuben, and the children of Gad, and the children of Manasseh spoke, it pleased them.
Joshua 22:32 And Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, and the princes, returned from the children of Reuben, and from the children of Gad, from the land of Gilead, to the land of Canaan, to the children of Israel, and brought them word again.

Apparently they constitueted a body which represented the twelve tribes and which, together with Moses and Aaron, later on with Eleazar, Joshua and Phinehas [acting] as Israel's official representatives. From

Number 16:2 2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown [fame]:

One could get the impression that the 'sheiks' [of] Numberrs 13:2[-16] [A list of 12 tribal chieftains]

Send thou men, that they may search the land of Canaan ... every tribe of their fathers shall ye send a man, every one a ruler among them. all those men were heads of the children of Israel. These are the names of the men which Moses sent to spy out the land.

Comprised a sizeable group of men. [lightly armored, quick moving raiders, with much in common to the bedoiun] ... more than the twelve had the title 'sheik'. Apparently also the heads of the families belonging to a tribe [was] sent by this designation. Their status also included the possesion of personal wealth

Numbers 3:24 The chief of the house of the father of the Gershonites shall be Eliasaph the son of Lael.
Numbers 25:14 The name of the Israelite that was slain ... with the Midianitish woman, was Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a chief house [of Simeon].
Numbers 35:27 So all the cities which ye shall give to the Levites shall be forty and eight cities: them shall ye give with their suburbs.

Leviticus 4:22-25 When a ruler hath sinned, and done somewhat through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD ... concerning things which should not be done, and is guilty; Or if his sin, in which he hath sinned, shall come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering ... without blemish: And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the goat, and kill it in the place where they kill the burnt-offering before the LORD: it is a sin-offering. And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin-offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar [Horns of Altar, Bull, Karnaim, (Midian)] of burnt-offering, and shall pour out his blood at the bottom of the altar of burnt-offering.

The sheiks are specially mentioned in the sections attributed to p. Noth [who] believes that the picture of the twelve tribal heads ... is not entirely fictional, but has a base in history in ... the period of judges [exodus-judges], presumably during the time of the amphictyony [? - Greek for] ["league of neighbors" ][like][http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphictyonic_League] each of the tribes was represented by a sheik in a college of tribal heads ... one of the duties of the college was the management of the communal sanctuary; supposedly the members of the college acted on behalf of the tribes. P. Noth considers the juxtaposition of "money and stuff" in [Exodus] 22:27 noteworthy, regarding it as evidence that the [tribal heads and familial heads] performed sacral duties.

Exodus 22:27
If a man shall deliver unto his neighbour money or stuff to keep, and it be stolen out of the man's house; if the thief be found, let him pay double.
Exodus 12:3 [Speak to the congregation of Israel, saying, In the 10th day of the month they shall [sacrifice] every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers]

Critical Praise for Houtman's Commentary on Exodus: informative and illuminating commentary which no one working on Exodus can afford to overlook" - J.W. Rogerson in Book List 1990, 56. is to my mind one of the best available on Exodus to modern scholars." - John Wevers in Bibliotheca Orientalis 48 (1991) 885. the commentary has a great deal to offer both scholar and layman, and ... provides the fullest modern treatment ... of Exodus that is available in any language"

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Exodus-Historical-Commentary-Old-Testament/dp/9024262135"]Amazon.com: Exodus. Volume I (Historical Commentary on the Old Testament) (9789024262137): C. Houtman: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/313s8OV9v5L.@@AMEPARAM@@313s8OV9v5L[/ame]

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