Who Wants to See the End of The American Empire? - Page 12 - Historum

laketahoejwb · September 17th, 2011, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qymaen

This is a little more than extreme.

These proposals are not extreme. The USA was mostly removed from International involvement until the beginning of WWII at Pearl Harbor. It is time we got back to our International affairs roots.

**unclefred** · September 17th, 2011, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sylla1

Both definitions above are clearly not limited to territorial expansion, as you can easily verify

Any time a nation is forced by a stronger one to do anything against its will, that action qualifies as imperialism.

The question here is if there has been (or still is) any group of nations that may have been regularly forced to modify their politics by the US, which would therefore qualify as an American Empire for any particular period (aside of course of some formal colonies like let say the Philippines, Puerto Rico or Hawaii before becoming a state).

For the record, at least Puerto Rico (and presumably some of those Pacific island states too) have clearly "made up their minds" on joining the US from long ago; it is the US which is yet to "make up his mind" on accepting them, instead of the bizarre "commonwealth" status, which means essentially nothing

.

This is also a good point. I look back at the war against Spain in 1898? And then expanded to the Philippines. It's not so tidy.

**Qymaen** · September 17th, 2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laketahoejwb

These proposals are not extreme. The USA was mostly removed from International involvement until the beginning of WWII at Pearl Harbor. It is time we got back to our International affairs roots.

But the attitudes of most Americans (culturally, internationally, politically, socially, etc.) are incredibly different than they were in the 1930s and before. Plus we weren't so isolated as you think since, with the Monroe Doctrine, we threatened to kick anyone's ass who decided to mess with any nation in the Western hemisphere. Then there's the incidents in East Asia throughout the last 40 to 50 years of the 19th century.

With the way the US is now most people, not all but most, would get pissed off if we isolated ourselves again. It isn't just a military and political thing, but a technological, cultural, and social thing.

**Panthera tigris altaica** · September 17th, 2011, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sylla1

The question here is if there has been (or still is) any group of nations that may have been regularly forced to modify their politics by the US, which would therefore qualify as an American Empire for any particular period (aside of course of some formal colonies like let say the Philippines, Puerto Rico or Hawaii before becoming a state).

I don't know. Are there countries bending to the will of the US, or is it just as more likely that the US is bending to the will of other countries? As in being played for the benefit of that particular country in question.

Quote:

For the record, at least Puerto Rico (and presumably some of those Pacific island states too) have clearly "made up their minds" on joining the US from long ago; it is the US which is yet to "make up his mind" on accepting them, instead of the bizarre "commonwealth" status, which means essentially nothing

.

I don't know where you heard that, but last I heard, i believe Puerto Rico will be voting over the issue of statehood some time in 2013. As far as i have been aware, they have been divided between joining as a US state and remaining with the status quo as it is.

sylla1 · September 17th, 2011, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica

I don't know where you heard that, but last I heard, i believe Puerto Rico will be voting over the issue of statehood some time in 2013. As far as i have been aware, they have been divided between joining as a US state and remaining with the status quo as it is.

From the Puerto Rican people, of course:

Quote:

NEW POLL: STATEHOOD FAVORED BY LARGE MAJORITY IN PUERTO RICO Statehood Support at 57 percent while Status quo garners 34 percent
(July 14, 2008)
A recent poll shows that now more than ever, a large island majority wants Statehood for Puerto Rico.

The poll, conducted in late May by Kaagan Research Associates of New York and later published in El Nuevo Día, Puerto Rico’s largest daily newspaper shows 57% of Puerto Ricans want Statehood as the island’s permanent political status, dismissing the current unrepresentative commonwealth status outright by an overwhelming 23 percentage points.
This 23-point spread is the largest recorded in any political status poll in Puerto Rico’s history.
Puerto Rico has not yet held a political status plebiscite that was agreed to in advance by the United States Congress.
In recent years, proponents of the status quo have floated concepts for an alternative status that are not constitutionally viable.
As a territory of the United States, the U. S. Congress in Washington, D.C. retains final decision-making authority over Puerto Rico’s status.
Puerto Rico has the distinction of been the longest-held territory of the United States in the country’s history; some 110 years since the Spanish-American War in 1898. Previously, Oklahoma had spent the longest period as a territory before becoming a full state of the federal union after 104 years.

77 Percent Want Equal Rights as State of the Union over Independence
The poll results show that only 34% of Puerto Ricans prefer the status quo, while 57% want Statehood for the island.
Only 5% of Puerto Ricans support independence according to the poll.
When asked to choose between fully representative sovereignty as a State of the union or a fully independent country, 77% favored Statehood for Puerto Rico with 12 percent in favor of independence.
These numbers mark the first time that any status option has held an absolute majority since Puerto Rico’s first status plebiscite in 1967.
Three plebiscites have taken place on the island, none sanctioned by Congress, making the results of little consequence tomany Puerto Ricans.
Voter turnout for the 1998 plebiscite was low by Puerto Rican standards at 71 percent.
Such overwhelming support for Statehood comes on the eve of November’s island-wide election, in which all major elected officials in Puerto Rico, including Governor, nonvoting Resident Commissioner in the U.S. House of Representatives, island-based government offices, and 78 municipal governments are up for election or reelection.

Source: U.S. Council for Puerto Rico Statehood

**kbear** · September 18th, 2011, 01:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laketahoejwb

The United should back out of being the “thug” on the International theater. We are broke, executed several illegitimate wars, financed weapons systems destabilizing many warring countries, collapsed our bonds and degraded our currency and bond ratings. We must stop all international aid, all weapons exchanges, stabilize our currency with a Gold standard and stop forcing our laws and culture down the throats of other countries and religons.

iagree with some of this BUT, would you rather have sharia laws forced down your throat? the US may not be perfect but i'd rather live under our laws...
for the countires grumbling about the US--who would be the first country they would call for assistance when needed?

laketahoejwb · September 18th, 2011, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qymaen

But the attitudes of most Americans (culturally, internationally, politically, socially, etc.) are incredibly different than they were in the 1930s and before. Plus we weren't so isolated as you think since, with the Monroe Doctrine, we threatened to kick anyone's ass who decided to mess with any nation in the Western hemisphere. Then there's the incidents in East Asia throughout the last 40 to 50 years of the 19th century.

I agree that things are much different now than in the thirties, but it was a highest feeling of Americans generally to stay out of the constant warring like WWI. We had to be dragged into the European Sphere of Influence (tricked) by Roosevelt and Churchill. The Monroe Doctrine as you say made us the throne of the Western Hemisphere in 1823 and eliminated Colonization in this Sphere. Colonization too has change in the Western Hemisphere since the thirties. Europe no longer sends its Armies here and we don't need to send our Armies there anymore. If they have a conflict or Financial collapse, don't call on us, we are broke and broken. Our Western Hemisphere policy need only to be a barricade along Mexico and Cuba and the tossing out all illegals.

The incidence in Asia have been fraught with failure and damaged our Allies. Vietnam is the sad example of this. Asia is now in the Sphere of China and India and we need only to be a good and dependable trading partner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qymaen

the way the US is now most people, not all but most, would get pissed off if we isolated ourselves again. It isn't just a military and political thing, but a technological, cultural, and social thing.

Sure thing let the non Americans and overseas sympathizers get p.. off. They will take our gifts of money, soldiers and weapons. Then corrupt it, sway our politicos then shoot us in the back with their slave labor markets. I don't propose that we pull out of fair trade. We can and will offer quality goods, computers, internet, and services that they desire. The trouble now is that they want our Corporate engines and are stealing them with arbitrary low taxes and slave-cost labor markets.

laketahoejwb · September 18th, 2011, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbear

iagree with some of this BUT, would you rather have sharia laws forced down your throat? the US may not be perfect but i'd rather live under our laws...
for the countires grumbling about the US--who would be the first country they would call for assistance when needed?

They can have their shiara laws all they want, ... over there. Those who try to shove their laws and cultures down our throats may find their satellites burnt up, their boats and planes sunk and their electric power grid unrecognizable.

Don't call us anymore. Were are broke until you foreigners return the stuff and reparations we have willing given or you owe in the past.

**tjadams** · September 18th, 2011, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laketahoejwb

...We must stop all international aid, .

Interesting point.
Maybe since I'm not a recipient, I don't know, but do other countries gives us
foreign aid? It sure seems a one way-sloped street.

**Zeno** · September 18th, 2011, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjadams

Interesting point.
Maybe since I'm not a recipient, I don't know, but do other countries gives us
foreign aid? It sure seems a one way-sloped street.

Belgium sent " 3 Medical teams of 31 personnel, logistic team of 10 personnel, coordination team of 4 personnel, civil engineering team of 10 personnel, diving team, and also balloon-lamps, low and high capacity pumps and small generators" to New Orleans in the wake of hurricane Katrina.

Many countries, including China, Russia and Cuba, sent aid.

International_response_to_Hurricane_Katrina

Furthermore, we're in Afghanistan, allow our ports and airfields to be used for the war in Iraq,...