Belisarius

Probably not many, to perform an amphibious assault, you need the resources to project your forces overseas. Ones that spring to mind include Ceasar's invasion of Britain 55 BCE, Santa Cruz' capture of the Azores [not sure that was opposed though, but he did use purpose built landing craft!], and Charles V's campaigns around the Mediterranean and North Africa. I'd have to delve into the subject in more depth and get back to you.

As to the defenders knowing where to wait, enemy fleets tended to make landfall and then hug the coast looking for a suitable landing site before making a landing. This would give the defender ample opportunity to get his troops to the nearest likely site.

finrod

I thought a large contigent of the forces (a third) were Mongol. It only makes sense for Kublai Khan to deploy his best troops for such an operation. Besides, there was intense fighting for six weeks without any progress from the invaders. The Japanese spared all their Chinese and Korean prisoners and slaughtered the Mongols.

Belisarius

News to me but I'll look it up and get back to you.

wittgenstein

The Mongol Empire was the largest contiguous empire and the second largest empire overall in world history, after the British Empire .At its greatest extent it stretched from the Danube to the Sea of Japan and from Novgorod to Camboja.It covered over 33.2 million km² ( as compared to the 5.9 million km² Roman Empire), 22% of the Earth's total land area, and held sway over a population of over 100 million people.
The destruction of the armies of the Central European countries in 1241 left the way open for the Mongols to invade Europe, and only the death of the Great Khan (Ögedei Khan) prevented it. The famous remark of the French king that he was going to fight the Tartars and would either send them back to hell or be himself sent to paradise was a sign of the fear the Mongol invasions aroused.
The Vikings were formidable but compared to the Mongols they were like ants on a rhino.

Belisarius

Finrod, From a fairly superficial look at the campaigns it seems that the Mongol invasion force of 1274 won their encounter with the Japanese but failed to push inland because the Korean sailors were worried about bad weather. They returned to their ships and sailed away. The 1281 invasion was more serious but this consisted initially of 8-10,000 Korean infantry and about 15,000 Chinese and Mongol troops. Given Kublai was engaged in a war with The Burmans and Southern Sung, and the fact that later Mongol Tumens were known to be wildly under strength, it would not be unreasonable to assume the Mongol element was in a minority [5-8,000]. The Japanese encountered fought more as individuals and fell victim to the disciplined mass archery and close formations of the invaders, and again failed to drive them off, however the famous “Kamikaze” destroyed the invasion fleet and the surviving troops were all massacred.
The Japanese in both cases were unable to defeat armies where Mongols were in a minority. How they’d have fared against a full Genghizid Mongol army in open battle is therefore a foregone conclusion. IMHO

finrod

Thanks for the info Belisarius.

Belisarius

No problem.

irivan

First I would like to say that i understand the great respect that many of you are paying to Mongol forces, however we must take into context all of the equation.

First to those of you saying that the "Rus" were destroyed by the Mongols, you are incorrect, your use of the term "Rus" is rather broad, implying that the only decedent tribe of Vikings that did battle with the Mongols and lost. This is where you are factually so far off this it should be embarrassing to you. Lets start by listing the various Russian city states that apply.

Kiev -Destroyed by the initial invasion of the Golden Horde
Vladimir - Destroyed by the initial invasion of the Golden Horde
Novgorod - Never fell into Horde hands, and forces in this city are largely responsible for the crushing defeat of the Mongols at the battle of Kulikovo, where the Russians who were supposed to be supported by Lithuanian troops who were late to the battle defeated the much larger Mongol force, they were outnumbered 2-1.
Chernigov -Capitulated to the Mongols and paid tithes to them
Moscow -Never came under Mongol rule because Novgorod was in the way.
Tvir -Never came under Mongol rule because Novgorod was in the way.

These are just the major ones. But the truth is that Mongols lost most of the battles they were involved in where they did not have overwhelming odds or treachery/incompetence in their favor. For example when the Mongols invaded the Khwarazm empire and assaulted the capital city of Urgench the Mongols were battled outside of the cities main gates to a stand still at first until the Mongols began to overwhelm them, it is widely thought of in Historical circles had the Khwarazm used their Elephant troops in the battle, things would have gone completely different and the attacking army would have been routed. But the Shah loved his Elephants to much and did not want to see them hurt. The Mongols attacked with a force of over 200,000, the Khwarazm were outnumbered 20-1 and could have won.

Back to the context thing.

Had the Vikings themselves battled the Mongols, it would have been on their terms. See the Vikings largely used stealth and ambush to achieve their objectives, they observed their enemies, then came by Sea or river in the cloak of night and the mist of fog, often before the enemy knew what was going on they had close quarter combat with some giant from the North. Had this scenario played out as it had thousands of times over the course of the viking era, no Mongol troop or Army would have stood a chance. Why? Because they would have never gotten on their horse. And even if some of them had managed to get horse back they would have been shot off of it. Something left out of the descriptions here is the fact that the average Viking also wielded a bow with an armor piercing tip, not with particular long range, but very accurate and could go straight through a lamellar breast armor.

Even if the Vikings had faced organized Mongol forces, it would have been on their terms, and the Vikings were masters of dismounting riders with their axes that were not just for chopping and parrying blades, it was also a thrown weapon, and they did not throw them at riders, they threw them at the horse. Additionally their shield wall small unit tactics would have allowed them to wedge themselves between large groups of riders and open fire at short range with their bows, slaying large numbers of horses. The Mongols were well known to break morale when dismounted and became disorganized quickly when they lost their mounts.

So to say that they Vikings would have just stood there on top of some hill, or to think of them as an immobile standing force is ludacris at best, even had they been pinned down by day, in the pitch of night they would have left their shields in a row, and snuck out leaving the Mongols to believe they were still there, only to find them later in their ranks slaying them en masse.

And do you really think horses can just ride for days on end, no they cant, they have to be rested and fed, and yes the vikings could wait and were very patient and could easily outrun a Mongol on foot.

So in summary, Vikings, just wait for the Mongol horsed to tire out, move in outnumbered 100-1 by the Mongols and kill them all and throw their heads into the river.

Their decedents did not do them justice, since by the time the battle of Kiev arrived they had given up on stealth tactics, and were horse back, and used standard European tactics of the time where men fought in lines and used a code of honor in battle that did not apply to the Mongols, but once every one caught wind, it did not take long until the Mongols got crushed, the Mongols even had a very difficult time with heavily armored European troops like the Bohemians who absolutely slaughtered the Mongols at the battle of Klodzko, and the Bohemians did it with Heavily armored cavalry to top it off. Mongol arrows could penetrate heavy plate mail as many videos of today can attest, as could an English Bodkin arrow head, however, that is assuming every thing is perfectly lined up, what about a shield carrying moving target that would block when fired upon? even today the arrow still has to be fired at very close range. and even then only penetrates 3 inches, enough to kill a man for sure, but with a shield in the way, its just a minor injury at best if at all, now imagine a charging horse, one that scares yours because its bigger, and after he fires you throw your spear/javelin that the bohemians wielded, that just equals dead Mongol.

So Mongols =ultimate killing machine, um no. Did they win a lot of battles, yes they did but only with over whelming force, once the Mongols could no longer field armies of 200,000 or more they were done. Easily beaten off by smaller European armies.

So yeah. Mongol vs Viking, Vikings win every time.

Thegn Ansgar

Not quite. The Mongols defeated numerically superior forces with less numbers in almost all of their engagements. The reason the Mongols failed in Europe was once they hit the Black Forest. Cavalry is extremely useful on plains, especially a cavalry force that was as mobile as the Mongols. Once cavalry becomes constricted (mountains, forests, rivers/swamps) their advantage in mobility is gone.

You're also giving disproportionate favour to the vikings. The vikings can't fight on the Mongol's terms, because the Vikings don't have mobility. Their axes also don't matter much, for the fact that the killing range of a throwing axe cannot compare to the killing range of a composite recurve bow.

The mongols can go where they want, and when they want because of their horses. They can avoid battle entirely, they can harass an army on all sides, and they can even send mass arrowstorms.

The mounted archer has largely been the most effective form of troop throughout history. It's why almost every single culture has used some form of mounted missile unit.

irivan

please quote some major engagements of any significance where the Mongols were out numbered. As far as i know they generally always had numerical superiority, in all of the Major engagements i listed they outnumbered their opponents any where from 2-1 to as much as 20-1 or more, we are not talking about skirmishes here, be are talking about battles. When the Mongols invaded Russia they came with a force of 500,000 men, when they landed against the Kevan Rus the first time they underestimated their fighting power and met them at the Battle of Khalka river where although the forces of Rus, the Cumans, Chernigov and a smattering of a few others met them with their entire armies, the amounts have been widely distorted throughout time, thought to be at first as many as 60,000, but more recent speculation lands that number at around 10000, the Mongols were known to have attacked with nearly 30000 horsemen alone, not counting infantry, scouts, and other support troops, supported by another 20000 turkish auxiliaries, all of this, against a much weaker, unorganized force and lost half of their men. When Jebe and Subatai returned the next time they came with a retarded 120000 men, it was not until then that the Kieven Rus were truly defeated.

Some people really like to pass a lot of hearsay, i have yet to see any true statistic on Mongol numbers where they were badly outnumbered or fought against even numbers of troops and won any really significant victories without themselves taking massive casualties.

But the opposite is certainly is true as i can and did above provide examples where their unprepared enemies on many occasions destroyed entire Mongol armies outnumbered badly.

You really have to wonder had the Russians been truly united under a solidified single leader, how many troops they might have been able to field, the Russian population of the Kieven territories at the time was around several million, but they could only field a very small army because the nobles were constantly squabbling over small things and fighting small battles with each other.

To say once again that the vikings would have all been shot down, please explain to me, which viking force would have been in any position to be attacked by any Mongol army? Would the Mongols suddenly produce or steal Russian Ladyas to seek them out at see or up on the river, then board their ships with their horses and run circles around the masts firing arrows? The Vikings were ambush fighters, and even when they did come under extremely heavy enemy arrow fire like at the battle of hastings, it was noted the that Vikings simply put up a shield wall and slowly advanced, nearly all arrows glanced off of the shields, and other Viking then emerged from the rear ranks and fired back with Long Bows, also nullified by a shield wall.

The point that i am makings is that the Vikings nearly always were the attackers, and always caught their enemies off guard, they didn't just walk around waiting to get attacked, they did not ride horses by large because they rode ships, and when they reached their destination the enemy was close enough to attack and did not know it was coming.

The few times that the Mongols got ambushed, like by the Vulga Bulgars, using largely foot soldiers, they got wiped out.

What part of Vikings, and ambush dont you understand?

The only reasont eh Viking faded out at all, was not because their mode of combat and warfare was outmoded, it was because in all of the places they conqured or raided, they eventually settled down and became part of the society, that is why you can find viking rune stones all over the world, they left their homelands and often, did not come back.

The largest ever viking army was probably the Dane army that attacked england and created Danelaw, but out side of that, most viking engagements were small, and were ambushes, always on Viking terms. I guess we could fantasize what would happen if a Mongol army happened upon 100000 Vikings marching in a line, but considering they never even faced more than 80000 Russians at any one time it really would be pure fantasy. And even if 100000 Vikings invaded (and it would have been an invasion) Mongolia it would have been in hundreds of long boats, moving up and down rivers by night and attacking using guerrilla tactics, that Mongols would have had no defense for.

So keep dreaming that the Mongols would some how defeat a Viking "land" army.