KingCoel1996

The scenario so far, something has happened in the American Civil War and the CSA has the advantage, i have two questions, First, what could this event most likely be, and second how would they consolidate this and become the ultimate victors.

Then sixty some years later Hitler comes to prominence in Europe, instead of siding with Japan he allies himself with the CSA who embraces fascism. two more questions, is this part of the scenario likely? and what would the probable outcome be assuming Germany and Russia remained at peace into the Cold War era?

tjadams

If the Union had lost at Gettysburg & Antietam and
the CSA able to hold on to Vicksburg, I see any of those events as being
a massive swing in fortunes.

I know this is all speculation, but I don't see the CSA going Fascist which
stops me from further speculation.

Belgarion

You can read Harry Turtledoves excellent 'Timeline 191' series for an idea of what a fascist Confederacy may be like.

oshron

beat me to it

Peter T Davis

The CSA wouldn't have waited around for a Hitler style fascism to arise. If some fantasy scenario (or nightmare scenario depending on which side you were on) came to be and the Slave States had not been thoroughly defeated, they would have set about conquering other countries (probably Mexico, some islands in the Caribbean, and even into Central and South America).

How could that prediction be made? Well, you just have to look at the words of the leaders of Slavery to see it. Lincoln had made a promise to not interfere with slavery in the states where it existed, and that wasn't the immediate concern of the Slaveholders. Their immediate concern was that Lincoln wasn't going to allow Slavery to be imposed upon any of the new states to the west. California......

Somehow, the Slaveholders in charge were of the opinion that this constraint would eventually lead to their doom. They did believe that to survive and thrive, their economic system, based on Slavery, needed to expand. That's where they conflicted with Lincoln and that's where they saw no compromise being made. You don't have to look too far into the Antebellum to find the saber-rattling expansionism of the Souther Slaveholders either. They had very recently taken several big bites out of Mexico, and for sure they would have sat down to feast at that table again shortly after the cessation of hostilities against the Union.

oshron

personally, i think turtledove's portrayal is more accurate. in that book, the CSA continues to practice slavery until about the turn of the century* but blacks are still kept in de facto slavery on plantations, and those who arent on plantations live in segregated communities, essentially in apartheid. the CSA doesnt expand much in the entire book, only acquiring kentucky and oklahoma (though its called "sequoyah" here) from their original claims and later getting cuba from spain and sonora and chihuahua as purchases from mexico, and they dont expand further than that

*i think; the first book takes place in the 1880s and the one after starts in 1914, and confederate slavery was abolished between books. its also stated that brazil continued slavery (at least in TL-191) longer than the CSA did


in relation to that, though, there's a mockumentary film called CSA: Confederate States of America which focuses on the same subject but has the CS annexing the rest of the US while abolitionists (including lincoln) retreat to canada, and they later conquer all of latin america as well in pursuit of slaves and get more slaves from africa and eastern asia. hitler is present in this one and the CSA declares neutrality towards germany: they wont attack him, but they wont help him, either. in terms of realism, TL-191 is better, but CSA is still entertaining enough

Belgarion

Great minds think alike!

Chancellor

In Turtledove's version, the Confederacy joins the Entente whereas the US favors the Central Powers.

KingCoel1996

of course turtledove's scenario involved two America's, what i'm suggesting is that the CSA gain the upper hand and then becomes the only American government. If the CSA had moved South and captured D.C. with most of the congress and the Presidential chain of succession would the Union have had sufficient leader ship to recover?

bil73

there is no way the south goes fascist the southern leaders where honorable men, Robert E Lee, Joe johnston ect. for some reason people (well northerners) think of the CSA as warmongers when it was the North that invaded the south.