Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Speculative History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Speculative History Speculative History Forum - Alternate History, What If Questions, Pseudo History, and anything outside the boundaries of mainstream historical research

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old August 7th, 2012, 11:28 PM   #471

Otharus's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 87

Originally Posted by Vincent_VdB View Post
Say you wanted to write an essay on WW II yiddish literature, and its linguistics... Then, should you add a paragraph where you proof (just for those who never believed the holocaust ever happened) that the holocaust actually happened, before you can talk about the linguistics of its literature?
Very subtle, Vincent, to suggest that 'OLB-believers' (including people who doubt the hoax-theories) are like holocaust-deniers.

Originally Posted by Vincent_VdB View Post
I was interested primarily in how the author wrote it grammatically, considering, indeed, the fact that he had to make up a grammar of its own before starting to write in this language. Assuming indeed, that it was fake.
Do you see how you transformed an assumption into a 'fact'?

Originally Posted by Vincent_VdB View Post
- on one weblog (...) I am considered being a mid-20th century person.
I suppose you are a bit confused, Vincent.
Here is what I wrote again about your thesis.

Fragment p.5, with translation:

"... in het midden van de twintigste eeuw [werd] het papier, de inkt en de binding onderzocht. Het resultaat van dit onderzoek was eensluidend: Thet Oera Linda Boek kon geen vervalsing zijn. Toch vallen de voorstanders van de echtheid na dit onderzoek stil. In de tweede helft van de twintigste eeuw zijn enkel nog stemmen te horen die de onechtheid van het boek onderstrepen."

"... in the mid-20th century, paper, ink and binding were investigated. The result of this research was unambiguous: The OLB could not be a forgery. Yet the proponents of its authenticity stay silent after this. In the 2nd half of the 20th century only voices are heard that claim it's a hoax."

Unfortunately, vd Bossche does not give sources for this mid-20th C. investigation.
I don't know what he was referring to.
So, the question is:

What mid-20th C. investigation were you referring to?
Otharus is offline  
Remove Ads
Old August 8th, 2012, 12:22 AM   #472

Vrank_Bouleen's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 279

Originally Posted by Otharus View Post
Very subtle, Vincent, to suggest that 'OLB-believers' (including people who doubt the hoax-theories) are like holocaust-deniers.
I think that is so totally not what he meant or implied.

I can see where this discussion is going to... again.
Vrank_Bouleen is offline  
Old August 10th, 2012, 05:49 AM   #473

Vrank_Bouleen's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 279

I think those interested in the OLB will find this post on another forum here interesting:

Vrank_Bouleen is offline  
Old October 20th, 2012, 07:17 AM   #474
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 2

Hey Otharus, Vrank_Bouleen,

What a tiring conversation.

Some last notes about it:
- This is a forum, not a mailbox. I'm still quite surprised googling my name and finding on the worldwildeweb on what day I'm precisely back from holidays, which e-mails I never answered and which mail I did answer, or what I am doing on facebook or not. Get a life. But please don't publish my life overhere.
- I made an essay, in 2000. I was 21 and had great fun. I let OLB go afterwards, I think I made that clear. Want to know something about it? Read my essay. Are things strange or weird or uncorrect about it? Sorry. I don't care very much. Must admit this is a hilarious (though quite neurotic) website.
- Also sorry I assume/take as a starting point the fact/assumption that OLB is a forgery. And NO I am not saying OLB-believers are like holocaust-deniers (Sigh). I am simply saying that (to give another example) one shouldn't always PROOVE something just because there happen to be non-believers. Its as if you should start every linguistic essay on Shakespeare by a chapter that prooves he actually existed (because there are non-believers). More subtle? By the way: no, I'm not saying now that you don't believe Shakespeare ever existed... Hope this one is subtle and understandable.

Bye - I go swimming.


Last edited by Vincent_VdB; October 20th, 2012 at 07:52 AM.
Vincent_VdB is offline  
Old October 21st, 2012, 01:14 AM   #475

Vrank_Bouleen's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 279

Hello Vincent,

Why is this a 'tiring' conversation? My last post in this thread was from more than 2 months ago !

And if you think this thread about the OLB is tiring, then you should know there is a thread on another board going on for years, and is almost 900 pages long, lol (and several of us here participate in that discussion also).

Anyway, since you are the only one who in recent times analyzed the linguistics of the OLB, it would be interesting to hear more about your ideas. But I gather I must go to Leuven, and study your essay overthere, or hope Otharus (who now studies in Leuven too) is willing to post more about it.
Vrank_Bouleen is offline  
Old October 21st, 2012, 08:28 AM   #476
Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Oct 2012
From: ...
Posts: 738

OLB is hoax. Get over it.
Vola is offline  
Old October 22nd, 2012, 01:22 AM   #477

Vrank_Bouleen's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 279

Originally Posted by Vola View Post
OLB is hoax. Get over it.
That was my very first reply in a thread that grew to 900 pages, lol !
Vrank_Bouleen is offline  
Old November 17th, 2012, 03:41 AM   #478

Vrank_Bouleen's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 279

Maybe some sort of revival of this thread would be welcomed by some?

Those who bought Alewyn's book or read the online English translation by Sandbach will be finished by now and hopefully have digested most of it.

What I have said in this thread is that Sandbach (and Ottema) made several errors, left out parts of sentences or added things that are not in the original text.

On that other board 'we shall never again mention the name of' (lol) I posted my translation of a paragraph of the OLB:


Hja tham thÍr saton vppa Ílanda wrdon LÍtne hÍten, thrvchdam hja mÍst al vrlÍten lÍvadon.
Alle str‚nd aend skor hÍmar fon-a DÍnemarka alont thÍre Saendfal nw Skelda wrdon Stjurar, SÍkaempar aend Angelara hÍton.
Angelara s‚ hÍton m‚n to fora tha butafiskar vmbe that hja alan mith angel jefta kol fiskton aend nimmer nÍn netum.
ThÍra thÍr th‚na til tha hÍinde KrÍkal‚nda s‚ton, wrdon bl‚t K‚d-hÍmar hÍten, thrvch tham hja ninmerthe buta foron.

(Sandbach's translation, but improved by me: )
Those who were 'seated' on islands were called LÍtne, because they lived an isolated life.
All those who had their homes on beaches and shores between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stiurar, SÍkaempar, and Angelara.
The Angelara were men heretofor called the Butafiskar* because they only fished with hooks or kol ** and never nets'.
From there to the near Krekalands the inhabitants were merely@ called Kadhemers ("K‚d-hÍmar"), because they never fared outside***.

* buta = here: without (nets)
** kol: fish gear to catch cod, consisting of a long line that is provided with angle and plummet.
*** buta - here: outside (DU: 'buiten')
For 'buta':
@ bl‚t = here: merely

And now compare with Sandbach's translation:

Those who lived in the islands were called Letten, because they lived an isolated life.
All those who lived between Denmark and the Sandval, now the Scheldt, were called Stuurlieden (pilots), Zeekampers (naval men), and Angelaren (fishermen).
The Angelaren were men who fished in the sea, and were so named because they used lines and hooks instead of nets.
From there to the nearest part of Krekaland the inhabitants were called Kadhemers, because they never went to sea but remained ashore.

Oera Linda Book

Most consider the near Krekalands to be Italy. That would mean that the Kadhemar lived between the North Sea and Italy, so how could they have been Phoenicians (who were famous as sailors, btw) ; it also has nothing to do with anything Crete in the quote above:

Kadhemers, The inhabitants of the north part of Crete who never went to sea. A dweller near the coast. A Phoenician.
Kadmus, A legendary Phoenician who is traditionally credited with bringing the alphabet to Greece.


(I should add that later on - the story of Nep Tunis in the Med Oera Linda Book - k‚d-hÍmar is simply translated as 'inhabitants on the coast', but still nothing to do with Phoenicians)
Vrank_Bouleen is offline  
Old November 17th, 2012, 03:56 AM   #479

Vrank_Bouleen's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 279

The OLB clearly gives an explanation for the former name of the Angelara, "Butafiska" : they never used nets, or they fished without nets.

But I had to think of something else.

In Dutch we have the word 'binnenvisser', or someone who catches fish in lakes and rivers and such.

'Binnen' means 'inside', and the opposite is 'buiten' or 'outside' (and 'without').

There is also a 'buitenvisser' or in old Dutch-ish, "buitenvisscher". That is someone who fishes at sea.

Butafiska >> buitenvisser >> fisherman at sea

Anyway, Butafiska appears to be the former name of the Angelara ("Anglers"), and not mentioned in any translation of the past 150 years.

Oh, and in the quote of the OLB you will read "to fora" which is indeed Old Frisian for 'before'.
In modern Dutch that would be "te voren"


I found a German surname that is very similar to this BUTAFISKA:

BŁtefisch , also spelled as Buetefisch.
Vrank_Bouleen is offline  
Old November 17th, 2012, 05:17 AM   #480

davu's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Retired - This Mountain isn't on a Map
Posts: 4,025

i find this thread to be most informative. i hope that it continues for another 48 pages. and of course the final book would be a nice fit in my small library.

thank you
davu is offline  

  Historum > Themes in History > Speculative History

book, linda, oera

Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which Book Should I Buy? mingming History Book Reviews 2 July 9th, 2011 10:46 AM
What is The Name of This Book? Jumbo Patties History Book Reviews 6 May 5th, 2011 08:26 PM
New Book on History of Britian -- I Should Like this Book davu Ancient History 4 May 1st, 2011 05:49 PM
Looking for a book Son of Cathal History Book Reviews 7 June 27th, 2010 05:43 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.