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Old January 14th, 2012, 06:40 AM   #1

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The Oera Linda Book


This thread has spun off from the thread about Frisia , the intention is to discuss the reasons that a dispute from around 1870 has arisen as to whether the book is fake or not ,
Some of the questions that could be discussed are:- is the book a 19th Century fake or a 13th Century fake , or is it a true record.

The Oera Linda book from a manuscript of the thirteenth century. The original Frisian text as ...

Could some of the 'facts' given not have been known by a faker at the time ,ie:- we have only just discovered them in the 130 years since it was found.

Do any of the names of people and places ring true with any history we now know better since 1870.or if it was faked 13th C , since then

Please do not bother posting if all you have to say , is yes its true , or no its a fake , we all know by now that there is a dispute , the point of the thread is to discuss the reasons for that dispute . Thank you .

PS. i have to go to work shortly but will try to get some info up before i go , if not i will be back ASAP
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Old January 14th, 2012, 06:48 AM   #2

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It's probably worth mentioning that the English translation can also be read directly online here:
The Oera Linda Book Index
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Old January 14th, 2012, 06:56 AM   #3
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Ok here's a quote from it, which tells us that the Finns used to live in a sunken land called Aldland, which elsewhere is also spelt Atland:

In early times almost all the Finns lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars.

The date of Atland's destruction is given in the following way, in a different passage:

Written at Liuwert, in the three thousand four hundred and forty-ninth year after Atland was submerged—that is, according to the Christian reckoning, the year 1256.

Which works out as 2194 BC. Other sources give 2193 BC, but this is erroneous because there was no year zero. This date appears to correspond very closely with a general collapse of civilisation in both Egypt and Mesopotamia, but in no way corresponds to Plato's date for the sinking of Atlantis.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 07:07 AM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linschoten View Post
It's probably worth mentioning that the English translation can also be read directly online here:
The Oera Linda Book Index
Please note the link i gave gives the Frisian text on one page and the English translation on the opposite page , so is very good for comparing languages , which is surprisingly fairly close in some instances
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Old January 14th, 2012, 07:53 AM   #5

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Indeed; it's just that some people might like to have a glance at the text without going to the trouble of dowloading the book.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 08:18 AM   #6

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C over deLinden was given the book in 1848 by his Aunt , who had kept the book left to him by his Grandfather, who died in1820 for safekeeping, the grandfather had informed the aunt that the book contained the de Linda family history , and needed to be guarded carefully, Unfortunately it was in a language that was strange to them both , and neither of them could read it .

Later on a Dr.E.Verwije heard about the book , and asked de linden if he could inspect it , he immediately recognised the antiquity of the manuscript , and also the ancient Frise language, it was Verwije who brought the book to the attention of the scholars , who were about to squabble about its Authenticity to this day .

Tests have been done on the paper on which the book is written , and is found to be made of cotton cloth , which was imported through Spain , from the Arabs and is cnsistent with writing materials that would have been available in the 13th Century ,which is when , on page 1 of oera linda Hiddo de Linden says that the original had been soaked in a flood, and had started to rot , and that he had therefore taken it upon himself to copy the old manuscript into a new book .

The ink used was also tested and found to be of a very dark black , during the 13th Century , and shortly into the 14th ink was made that did not include any iron , which meant the colour stayed permanently very black, however after this time iron was included in ink manufacture , and the iron served to turn the writting a reddish , or yellowish colour after a fairly short period of time.

So Hiddo admitted , straight away that he was copying the older manuscript in the 13th century ,the writing materials are consistent with the 13th century ,so why is there so much dispute that this copy was not made in the 13th Century ???
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Old January 14th, 2012, 08:39 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ib-issi View Post
C over deLinden was given the book in 1848 by his Aunt , who had kept the book left to him by his Grandfather, who died in1820 for safekeeping, the grandfather had informed the aunt that the book contained the de Linda family history , and needed to be guarded carefully, Unfortunately it was in a language that was strange to them both , and neither of them could read it .

Later on a Dr.E.Verwije heard about the book , and asked de linden if he could inspect it , he immediately recognised the antiquity of the manuscript , and also the ancient Frise language, it was Verwije who brought the book to the attention of the scholars , who were about to squabble about its Authenticity to this day .

Tests have been done on the paper on which the book is written , and is found to be made of cotton cloth , which was imported through Spain , from the Arabs and is cnsistent with writing materials that would have been available in the 13th Century ,which is when , on page 1 of oera linda Hiddo de Linden says that the original had been soaked in a flood, and had started to rot , and that he had therefore taken it upon himself to copy the old manuscript into a new book .

The ink used was also tested and found to be of a very dark black , during the 13th Century , and shortly into the 14th ink was made that did not include any iron , which meant the colour stayed permanently very black, however after this time iron was included in ink manufacture , and the iron served to turn the writting a reddish , or yellowish colour after a fairly short period of time.

So Hiddo admitted , straight away that he was copying the older manuscript in the 13th century ,the writing materials are consistent with the 13th century ,so why is there so much dispute that this copy was not made in the 13th Century ???
To be frank, because it simply doesn't read like it was written in the 13th century, or earlier for that matter.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 09:56 AM   #8

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In 1876, the manuscript was submitted to Frederik Muller, a leading Amsterdam bookseller and expert on antiquarian manuscripts, and he concluded that it was of 19th Century origin. Extracts form his report, partly in hasty translation, partly in summary:

that the paper and the writing in the manuscript cannot be older than 1800 and both are probably no more than 25 years old...

Paper in the 13th century was made wholly of cotton [katoen: presumably meaning 'from linen' here], thick, uneven, woolly, with very uneven, unclear waterlines - this paper is thin, even, hard, translucent here and there, with regular, clear waterlines.

[the nature of the waterlines in relation to the texture of the paper indicates that it cannot date from before 1800]

This paper is coloured yellow and not naturally yellow, as many patches prove.

This paper has been cut, as is clear to see; paper in the 13th Century could not be cut or clipped without leaving threads [/filaments, i.e. a distinctive rough edge] [from the nature of the cut edges, this looks to be machine-made paper] indeed..good machine-made paper, which cannot be older than 25 to 30 years..

[the paper has been sewn into a book; among other things] the way in which it has been sewn in is wholly modern and completely different from what one finds in old manuscripts...

The writing is far too new to be of any high antiquity; the ink lies on the paper; it has not attacked the paper; as would necessarily follow if it was very ancient. [Where translucent, that is not because the ink has sunk in, but because the paper is thin there] the ink is far too black to be of high antiquity; in the old days it was lighter, and after a time turned wholly brown

Muller also sent the manuscript to P. Smidt van Gelder, director of well-known paper-factories in the Netherlands, for an independent view, without informing him beforehand of his own conclusions. This paper-manufacturer came to the same conclusion:

'In accordance with your request, I have the honour to inform you of my definite conviction that the paper of the Oera Lina book is not paper of any high age. [It was machine-made paper about 30 years old, in his view from the factory of Messrs Tielens and Schrammen in Maastricht. The flat even surface and material of the paper confirm that it is not old. He showed the book to one of his foremen, and asked him to write down where he thought the paper had come from, and the foreman wrote down the name of the same factory in Maastricht!]

Full text and sources here:
Oeralindaboek (click on dossiers, go to dossierdoos 3, papieronderzoek)

Last edited by Linschoten; January 14th, 2012 at 10:01 AM.
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Old January 14th, 2012, 11:11 AM   #9

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P.S. This plainly conflicts in certain regards with what ib-issi reports above; I will try to find more recent sources to see whether Muller's conclusions remain accepted among Dutch scholars. The main reasons why the book soon fell into disrepute among them were linguistic; I will return to this (although I am by no means qualified to form an independent judgement on matters of Frisian linguistics!)
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Old January 15th, 2012, 12:30 AM   #10

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Linschoten View Post
P.S. This plainly conflicts in certain regards with what ib-issi reports above; I will try to find more recent sources to see whether Muller's conclusions remain accepted among Dutch scholars. The main reasons why the book soon fell into disrepute among them were linguistic; I will return to this (although I am by no means qualified to form an independent judgement on matters of Frisian linguistics!)
I appreciate your report Linschoten , as you say it completely refutes , what i had posted as the likely pointers that the book was genuine , as i knew this is what we were going to be talking about , in this thread , that is why i posted my link , because all the 'facts' i posted can be found in the preview pages of my link ,
This is clearly a lesson not to read one source only , and believe it is 'Gospel', Thanks for your info , I too will see if i can find any more recent information on the Authenticity or not .
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