Bart Dale

Which is my point. Arthur, without his sword, is nothing special and he was not the best. A good warrior, maybe, but by no means the greatest. Achilles, on the other hand, was without peer, and he was the greatest. He was clearly acknowledged as the best fighter by all. When the merely good fighter (Arthur) fights the best (Achilles), the best will win, magic sword or no magic sword.

Zarin

Which I discovered with a little cursory reasearch as well. However, this still does not undermine the over-all mythos surrounding each character, even if centuries apart. And as a part of this speculative thread cannot be ignored. But I do retract my earlier statement that the information about his mother was in the Iliad. For that, you are 100% correct. So thanks for the info.
I can't remember if the part about Paris, the three Goddesses and the golden apple are in the Iliad either. Guess I am going to have to further refresh my memory of it. If I can find the time.

okamido

I think this is all that I was making a comment on originally. For the purpose of this thread, should we consider all of the legends/ poems of these men, or just those form their original introduction.

Naomasa298

Only amongst the Greeks.

Thegn Ansgar

Not quite. There is nothing that can be construed as being part of the Dendra panoply in the Iliad, neither are their tower shields or figure 8 shields. Homer is quite frankly describing Greek geometric armour, and whenever he is describing something older (boars tusk helmets, Dendra panoply, etc.) he goes to great lengths to describe it and to tell the reader that it was not commonly used anymore.

There are no neck protections, or shoulder protections in the Iliad, and only one possible type of segmented armour, and Homer says it was an unusual armour from an earlier time. Basically almost all of the armour that the Argives were wearing in the Iliad were of the Argos type, with a Mitra plate hanging below. A good example is when Diomedes is wounded by an arrow passing through his shoulder and protruding through the back. If he were wearing any armour that had shoulder guards, such a thing would be impossible.

Here is the relevant passage:

- [5.188-189]

English translation:

There is a lot of work going on (both old, and very recent), which suggests the chronology of the time period has shifted, and that the Trojan War happened at an earlier date (possibly 950-900 BC).

Once I can gather the links from an old hard drive I have, I'll post them here.

If you wish to look up more about this before I'm able to get those links, I'd suggest reading up on some things by Peter James, Nikos Kokkinos, and I.J. Thorpe. There are quite a number of PDFs which are made free for use on the internet. I'd also suggest looking at the Bronze Age Center forums. There's lots of excellent stuff to be found there (I won't link it, since technically it is a competing forum, even though it is specific to the Bronze Age, but you can easily find it in a google search.)

Also, as for weapons, people are forgetting Achilles' spear. The spear which was given to Peleus by Kheiron.

"He [Akhilleus] pulled out from its standing place the spear of his father [Peleus], huge, heavy, thick, which no one else of all the Akhaians could handle, but Akhilleus alone knew how to wield it, the Pelian ash spear which Kheiron had brought to his father from high on Pelion, to be death for fighters in battle."

okamido

Thegn, part of the O/P is about the historic aspect. So, I am talking about what he may have looked like historically, not how he looked within the Iliad. The armor that I posted is a replication of the panoply that was found at Dendra, which you are aware of. Now portions of this armor have also been found at Mykenae, Phaistos, and in layers of 'Troy'. It is a singular example of what the nobles of that period may have looked like when entering battle.

AlpinLuke

Yes, the historical confrontation just requires to rebuild the proper historical contexts of the two figures.

While, it's in the mythological field that the contexts are more "variable", since actually the myths have developed through the centuries adding and/or modifying characteristics and equipment. And this makes the "mythological competition" a more fluid matter.

okamido

Would this horseman be accepted as the historic 'Arthurian' image?

Thegn Ansgar

Thing is, historically the Dendra panoply does not fit in with the time frame of the Trojan war. What Achilles looked like historically, does not fit in at all with this armour. The orthodox dating method is extremely unlikely.

I suggest reading "Ancient Chronography, Eratosthenes and the Dating of the Fall of Troy", by Nikos Kokkinos. You'll see that the Dendra panoply is too early.

Recent Developments (The whole website is excellent in general)

This link alone shows many publications which are advocating for a change in the timeline, one that would also fit in with Homeric descriptions of both arms and armour.

The dates are seriously messed up. 10th century Mycenaean graves found under 12th century walls. An Egyptian 22nd dynasty tomb that had a corner of its wall cut off to make room for an earlier 21st dynasty room. A very large cemetery from 1200 with no settlement, except for a settlement from 900 which has no cemetery. Whole cities and regions abandoned for 300 years, and then suddenly reoccupied with the same material culture. The dates are totally out of wack.

Also I would recommend reading P.J. Furlong's thesis "Aspects of ancient Near Eastern chronology (c. 1600-700 BC)"

I wouldn't be so quick to throw out Homer in regards to historic studies. He may not have been as far removed from the event as is commonly thought. It is not fair or objective to say that he made this up purely for entertainment. Take out the Greek dark ages (another thing which does not fit), and Homer is placed within a generation or two from the Trojan war. Discounting it due to it being at first an oral tradition is also not objective. There are plenty of cultures around the world that use oral history as history, and carefully preserve it with little to no alteration through the centuries.

There are also problems with the Dendra panoply from a fighting perspective. Generally it is an armour which is not entirely suited for being on foot. The neck guard for example is a separate piece, and bumps around quite a lot when you're on foot, and also is very constricting. It prevents you from looking down. All of the reenactors I've read about who do this period say that it's fine on a chariot, but if they were fighting on foot, they would remove this piece.

The shoulder guards are also restrictive in that they prevent you from throwing a javelin.

okamido

I agree with all of this, especially the bolded piece.....it comes off as too cumbersome. Kind of why I said this: