WeisSaul

What if Congress Poland achieved independence in 1908 thanks to the 1905(-1908) revolution in Russia?

It could be for whatever reason. Fighting by itself, German/AH support, French support,or whatever.

Belloc

Well it certainly would have a weak hold onto its independence and would face a precarious situation once WWI came along, to fight with the Central Powers or fight with their former enemies the Russians.

WeisSaul

I'd think it would be Central Power aligned. It could have expanded to the east at the expense of Russia, taking Belarus, Lithuania, and Courland for itself.

Poland could have snatched up Galicia later, when AH collapsed under its own weight. Russia was clearly the bigger threat compared to Germany and AH.

azato2000

1. Poles are always in conflict with their neighbors. So they wouldn't establish good relationships with Germany by 1914
2. Significant parts of Poles lived in Austria and Prussia.
3. Poles always had ambitions of conquerors (some problems with realization though). So they would try to get austrian and german territories.

Conclusion. Poland joins the Entente but cannot temper the russophobia and makes some strategic mistakes that cause the catastrophe on the Eastern Front. Actually the same end as in reality.

Mosquito

why dont you go to your yurt and drink some kumis instead writing nonsences? or are you maybe already drunk and lost way to your yurt?

WeisSaul

In historical WW1, Poland sided with Germany, planning on getting as much out of it as possible and then they would turn on the Germans and Austrians in favor of France and her allies. I don't see why an independent and more established Poland can't do the same.

Besides, many Poles in Germany were highly integrated and Germanized, and could have said wonderful things about Germany to the free Poland next door. Simply playing nice with Germany and reaping the benefits of that arrangement could work well too.

YoungDonDraper

Are you Polish? I mean absolutely zero offense by this, but I'm asking because in the short time I've been on this board I've noticed that many people on here have very optimistic views of the military prowess of their home country or their ethnic homeland. The gentleman who posted that if Turkey had joined Nazi Germany they could have defeated the Soviets comes to mind.

That's quite the agenda of conquest, but I have a couple additional elements for you to consider. Rather than Germany and Poland teaming up and spanking Russia easily, it seems more likely to me that the Germans would have marched an even larger portion of their army to the Western front, secure in the knowledge that the Russians would need to fight a bloody battle through Poland to threaten Germany. As a result, Poland would fight an atrocious war and be bled white; it seems unlikely that the Polish military could put together a force strong enough to defeat Russia within a few short years of their independence. What do you think?

I wonder what Poland would have thought about the Germans transferring Lenin through their territory into Russia (assuming those events still took place considering the different course of the war). It's one thing to destabilize an enemy, but the Poles might not be pleased with the prospect of the great proletarian revolution getting started on their doorstep. Thought?

WeisSaul

Well no, I am not Polish. I'm a Germanophilic Jew.

If Poland is aligned with Germany, then Germany is that much closer to Moscow (albeit not by too much) and odds are the Poles would be acting under German leadership, if not domination. The Poles would probably be rewarded for their good behavior, likely with parts of if, not all of, Belarus, and depending on how nice they play with Germany, perhaps even Vilnius, or even all of Lithuania and Courland. I'd think while there would be a Poland that looks quite impressive on a map, it'd be no more of a sovereign state than Austria-Hungary was.

Poland would not be much on its own, but rather would simply be contributing to German might with what little they can provide: distance and manpower. Germany is a fwe hundred miles closer to Moscow, and Poland contributes a few hundred thousand troops receiving modern military training and German (and captured Russian) weapons.

Plus, if Germany manages to use Poland to pull of an impressive feat early in the war, it could perhaps convince other countries, particularly Italy (for Tunisia), Sweden (Finland and Estonia), Romania (Bessabaria), Persia (North Azerbaijan, Balochistan, Bahrain, Zanzibar, and Armenia), Afghanistan (Tajikistan), Japan (Russian, French, and British Colonies and territories) or China (Russian lands) to join the Central Powers cause.

The argument I am making is not that Poland would be any good on its own (it wouldn't) but that it would be a launching pad for greater German success.

In regards to Lenin, I don't think the Poles would have minded a civil war breaking out resulting in a large number of dead Russians.

Also, I can't disagree with you about the flaming nationalism on this board. Turkey defeating the Soviet Union!? Maybe they can hope to bog them down in the mountains, but actually defeating the Soviets? Not a chance! If they were lucky they could maybe pull a Finland, but even that's a stretch.