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July 12th, 2012, 04:04 AM
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#1 | | Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 925 | What if the Ottomans discovered America?
How would America look like?
Would the native population, language and religion still live?
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July 12th, 2012, 04:15 AM
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#2 | | Historian
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,765 | Quote:
Originally Posted by macro How would America look like?
Would the native population, language and religion still live? | The Ottoman Empire would have done exactly what they did in the ME and parts of Europe...in fact, they would have done what any other Imperial State would have done.....
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July 12th, 2012, 04:24 AM
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#3 | | Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 925 |
Ottoman doctrine was as long as you paid the taxes it didn't matter which religion you had or language you spoke.
That is why the Balkans kept their religion, language, etc, although Turks were 500 years there.
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July 12th, 2012, 04:37 AM
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#4 | | Historian
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,765 | Quote:
Originally Posted by macro Ottoman doctrine was as long as you paid the taxes it didn't matter which religion you had or language you spoke.
That is why the Balkans kept their religion, language, etc, although Turks were 500 years there. | hmmmm.... i disagree, but dont want to start talking about the Ottoman Empire and its treatment of its populace. Needless to say, i dont think it was as simple (or peaceful) as you describe.
If the Ottoman Empire reached the Americas first then to be successful i think they would have to adopt the private ownership (ability to purchase and own a freehold) and not state ownership of land, or a Hudson's Bay Company type arrangement. As the Sultan ruled supreme i would expect he would become land owner of the whole continent. If they failed to modernize with their neighbours then it would be the same history, just on a bigger scale.
Not sure how they would treat the heathen pagans, i would speculate it would be no different to how the native Americans were treated in the past. Can you provide examples of how the Ottoman Empire treated pagans in their conquered territory as an example? We can then apply that to how they would have interacted with the Native's
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July 12th, 2012, 10:48 AM
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#5 | | Historian
Joined: Jun 2012 From: Konstantiniyye Posts: 1,347 |
They would've probably try to convert them to Islam and all the other things probably would've happened same as happened with other colonisers but I don't think they would for example try to give the natives some viruses with blankets.
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July 12th, 2012, 10:58 AM
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#6 | | Historian
Joined: Dec 2011 Posts: 2,460 | Quote:
Originally Posted by macro How would America look like?
Would the native population, language and religion still live? | The Ottomans would not have tolerated human sacrifice and most likely would have forced the native peoples to convert to Islam. Which is what happened in the initial centuries of Moslem conquest. The Moslems under the Ottomans eventually reached a point of limited maturity whereby they tolerated some variation in religious belief, but only out of convenience and only where they had absolute control.
Just as the Spanish, Portugese, English, French and Russians forced the speaking of their languages in the areas they controlled, so would the Turks have done the same. A common language is always necessary for basic communication. Most likely there would have been substantial interbreeding (males tend to do this wherever they go) and eventually a large mixed breed of Turks and Natives would have emerged. The New World under the Ottomans would have been an entirely different place with a very different destiny.
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July 12th, 2012, 11:16 AM
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#7 | | Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 925 |
Well, they would loose some of their freedoms, but at the end they will be at life.
I don't think that is a small difference.
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July 12th, 2012, 11:23 AM
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#8 | | Historian
Joined: Feb 2010 Posts: 1,274 | Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin The Ottomans would not have tolerated human sacrifice and most likely would have forced the native peoples to convert to Islam. Which is what happened in the initial centuries of Moslem conquest. The Moslems under the Ottomans eventually reached a point of limited maturity whereby they tolerated some variation in religious belief, but only out of convenience and only where they had absolute control. | That's simply not true. Arabs didn't usually force people to convert to Islam during their initial conquests. Pagans shouldn't be theoretically tolerated under muslim rule, but they were not very numerous in the Caliphate and where they formed a large segment of the population, like in India, they were tolerated for pragmatic reasons. Christians, Jews and even Zoroastrians and some other groups like Mandeans were considered to be "people of the book" and therefore were granted the status of "ahl al dhimmah" and were (usually) tolerated.
The Ottomans basically adopted this existing islamic system and applied it in their empire (until the second half of the 19th century). It wasn't their invention, but a part of the islamic law.
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July 12th, 2012, 11:27 AM
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#9 | | Historian
Joined: Aug 2009 Posts: 1,765 |
I'm not convinced that there would have been a difference in how the ottomans acted compared to the those colonisers who did make it there.
After all, to build an empire you need to use more than just diplomacy and a new religion. There are ways people who will resist change to fight to prevent it, the ottomans weren't against putting down revolts violently. Moreover they would have had to act with some degree of violence to control such a large territory, as with the conquest of their real empire.
I can't think of any empire that has been founded (then expanded) without violence and subjugation of the original inhabitants.
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July 12th, 2012, 11:38 AM
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#10 | | Suspended indefinitely
Joined: Apr 2012 Posts: 925 |
Everybody can have their own opinion of course.
But I think all native American countries would still exist today the same way the Balkan countries exist today, keeping their language, religion,etc
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