Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Speculative History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Speculative History Speculative History Forum - Alternate History, What If Questions, Pseudo History, and anything outside the boundaries of mainstream historical research


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old October 19th, 2012, 05:38 PM   #31

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I could say the same to you.
Tit for tat... how mature.
Zarin is offline  
Remove Ads
Old October 19th, 2012, 07:08 PM   #32

Hresvelgr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,039
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
Tit for tat... how mature.
I think it a perfectly valid response to you claiming I made something up in lieu of presenting an actual, reasoned argument with sources against my statements.
Hresvelgr is offline  
Old October 19th, 2012, 08:12 PM   #33
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,033

I think the story of fusang discovering america is false and that the land he went to was not america, but here is a free copyright expired book about him and america anyway.

Fusang: The Discovery of America by Chinese Buddhist Monks in the Fifth Century - Charles Godfrey Leland - Google Books

More here (I don't believe them by the way)

An inglorious Columbus: or, Evidence that Hwui Shan and a party of Buddhist ... - Edward Payson Vining - Google Books

The Asiatic fathers of America - Hendon Mason Harris - Google Books

Last edited by deke; October 19th, 2012 at 10:06 PM.
deke is offline  
Old October 19th, 2012, 08:27 PM   #34

Mandate of Heaven's Avatar
Ate too much
 
Joined: Jul 2010
From: Not sure what it is
Posts: 6,851

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
I think it a perfectly valid response to you claiming I made something up in lieu of presenting an actual, reasoned argument with sources against my statements.
I think he made very reasonable arguments, that in archaelogy and most other scientific disciplines, the conclusions are never facts. That is why speculative words like probably, possibly were used all the time.
Mandate of Heaven is offline  
Old October 20th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #35

Hresvelgr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,039
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
I think he made very reasonable arguments, that in archaelogy and most other scientific disciplines, the conclusions are never facts. That is why speculative words like probably, possibly were used all the time.
Regardless, an early discovery of America by Chinese explorers is not supported by any archaeological evidence. The most there is are Chinese coins in the Northwest, an area visited by travelers from tribes like the Inuit that crossed the Bering Straight and lived in both continents. The Fusang account describes a land bearing little if any resemblance to America. The use and value of jade predates any alleged Chinese visit by centuries at least, if not millennia. Alleged similarities to Chinese art in Maya sculpture and painting is more readily and logically explained by their mythology and the like than any Chinese expedition. Again, you can't just base a theory on how cool it sounds or the idea that the mainstream is always wrong and they haven't found any ancient documents saying "No, the Chinese definitely did not come here".
Hresvelgr is offline  
Old October 20th, 2012, 10:47 AM   #36

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
Regardless, an early discovery of America by Chinese explorers is not supported by any archaeological evidence. The most there is are Chinese coins in the Northwest, an area visited by travelers from tribes like the Inuit that crossed the Bering Straight and lived in both continents. The Fusang account describes a land bearing little if any resemblance to America. The use and value of jade predates any alleged Chinese visit by centuries at least, if not millennia. Alleged similarities to Chinese art in Maya sculpture and painting is more readily and logically explained by their mythology and the like than any Chinese expedition. Again, you can't just base a theory on how cool it sounds or the idea that the mainstream is always wrong and they haven't found any ancient documents saying "No, the Chinese definitely did not come here".
I do not consider what I have written as a theory. Only as a suggestion based on what is obvious. I do not consider it "cool" or based on a bias towards mainstream archeological thought. To assert that the Polynesians could and did reach America by crossing the entire Pacific Ocean denies the very logical probability that the Chinese were also capable of doing so as well. More the probability that Chinese or Asian boating technology followed the contiguous coastline that easily unites Asia and the two New World continents. A very probable likelihood. That direct Chinese interface has not been found in substantial amounts does not occlude it's most probable occurrence. And most likely having occurred many unrecorded times in the 12,000 year known history of Asian peoples having occupied both North and South America. That a people in Ecuador are missing the exact viral component as a people in Japan and also have similarities in pottery construction suggest a stronger link than mere co-incidence. The Mesopotamians and Egyptians were right next door to each other, but there is very little physical or stylistic evidence of economic or cultural interface between these two civilizations, yet we know that such interaction took place and more than frequently. That the Jewish people recoded their existence in both cultural arenas is one well accepted link. Moreover only a few diplomatic records exist to prove such contacts actually occurred. Yet we acknowledge that significant interface occurred between Egypt and Mesopotamia. And probably for a lot further back in time than mainstream archeology likes to admit. That the people of Meso-America have in common a preference in minerals as a nation 8,000 miles across the Pacific and also there are other cultural connections as well as stylistic does not suggest co-incidence either. That there are also links to India and Japan suggest numerous non-coincidental Asian interface as well. I appreciate the need for conservative non-imaginative archeologists to rely on concrete proofs, but it has always been those willing to question the status quo; who have made major improvements in archeological understandings of the true and actual history of human movements on this planet. However, I have noticed that the conservatives show the greatest amount of resistance and hostility to any ideas that may upset their applecart of entrenched viewpoints. Well many archeological digs are currently underway that could very well upset a tremendous amount of these "applecarts."
Zarin is offline  
Old October 20th, 2012, 12:08 PM   #37

Hresvelgr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,039
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
That the people of Meso-America have in common a preference in minerals as a nation 8,000 miles across the Pacific and also there are other cultural connections as well as stylistic does not suggest co-incidence either.
For the love of god, I've already been over this and told you repeatedly how impossible it is using basic facts anybody can look up on wikipedia. You keep insisting it's "obvious". Is it so obvious? Then tell me why! You insist on acting all smug and superior over me and my "conservative" attitude and how I'm just listening to the lamestream establishment and all that jazz, but you have not once given any kind of evidence to support your claims beyond "suggestion" that you still claim is the truth while saying you're not claiming it's necessarily the truth. Double-talk is pointless and aggravating in debates such as this, as is dodging the question and repeating yourself over and over. Give me the proof that these similarities are beyond coincidence or drop the idea. As I said, useage of jade predates hypothesized Chinese visits by millenia. Unless you're telling me the Shang dynasty sailed to America before even having visited Manchuria, you're just making up claims based upon your own ignorance of the subject.
Hresvelgr is offline  
Old October 20th, 2012, 08:47 PM   #38

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
For the love of god, I've already been over this and told you repeatedly how impossible it is using basic facts anybody can look up on wikipedia. You keep insisting it's "obvious". Is it so obvious? Then tell me why! You insist on acting all smug and superior over me and my "conservative" attitude and how I'm just listening to the lamestream establishment and all that jazz, but you have not once given any kind of evidence to support your claims beyond "suggestion" that you still claim is the truth while saying you're not claiming it's necessarily the truth. Double-talk is pointless and aggravating in debates such as this, as is dodging the question and repeating yourself over and over. Give me the proof that these similarities are beyond coincidence or drop the idea. As I said, useage of jade predates hypothesized Chinese visits by millenia. Unless you're telling me the Shang dynasty sailed to America before even having visited Manchuria, you're just making up claims based upon your own ignorance of the subject.
You can always tell when a poster is losing an argument. They always get personal and use demeaning terms such as smug, superior, double talk, dodging the question, et al. Moreover, the "love of god" has nothing to do with this forum. However, I did get you to admit you have a "conservative attitude." Duh! Like that was a surprise. Nothing innovative, creative or imaginative has ever come out of "conservative" thinking. Just the principle of maintaining the Status Quo.
Zarin is offline  
Old October 21st, 2012, 05:11 AM   #39

Hresvelgr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,039
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
You can always tell when a poster is losing an argument. They always get personal and use demeaning terms such as smug, superior, double talk, dodging the question, et al. Moreover, the "love of god" has nothing to do with this forum. However, I did get you to admit you have a "conservative attitude." Duh! Like that was a surprise. Nothing innovative, creative or imaginative has ever come out of "conservative" thinking. Just the principle of maintaining the Status Quo.
You can tell when a poster is losing an argument when they continue to dodge the question and continues to insist on arguing semantics and twisting words to look smart. I don't know who you're fooling, but I'm certainly not among them. I asked you a question, if you could actually back up your claims with real evidence rather than fanciful suggestions. You refuse to acknowledge I made such a request. This reflects poorly on you, not me.
Hresvelgr is offline  
Old October 21st, 2012, 07:56 AM   #40

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
You can tell when a poster is losing an argument when they continue to dodge the question and continues to insist on arguing semantics and twisting words to look smart. I don't know who you're fooling, but I'm certainly not among them. I asked you a question, if you could actually back up your claims with real evidence rather than fanciful suggestions. You refuse to acknowledge I made such a request. This reflects poorly on you, not me.
I will let the other readers decide on who actually contributed to the intent of this thread and who turned out to be the total naysayer. Everything you posted was in the negative. You totally denigrated Betty Meggers, a brilliant archeologist with impeccable credentials. You totally denigrated Heinrich Schliemann, The man who proved Troy actually existed. You outright ignored anything posted that gave credence to logical possibilities. You blanketly denigrated the Fu Shang references as "fakes." Which I seriously doubt you have the expertise to determine. Nor that you are credentialled to do so. You just love to be contrary. And outright hostile at that. And becoming more so with each response. Moreover, since you have admitted to being "conservative," one can surmise that you are totally distant from the concept of imagination, creativity or innovative thinking. And are actually incapable of getting outside your blatent hostility, negativity and fatuous put downs.
Zarin is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Speculative History

Tags
americas, chinese, discovered



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Napoleon in the Americas WeisSaul Speculative History 5 March 11th, 2012 12:35 PM
What if ancient China discovered the Americas before the Spanish? purakjelia Speculative History 8 January 3rd, 2012 10:41 PM
Chinese Discovered America? mingming Speculative History 41 March 5th, 2011 07:04 AM
Two Americas Kiwi Speculative History 1 November 22nd, 2008 09:56 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.