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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:25 PM   #11

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Originally Posted by bartieboy View Post
Good question and I'd like to respond with a quote......
Please can you tell us who said that, thanks.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:27 PM   #12

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Please can you tell us who said that, thanks.
But of course, this gentleman was Mr. William L. Shirer
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:34 PM   #13

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Any chance of an Anglo-German or a Franco-German alliance had pretty much gone by 1938. After Munich, it would have been politically impossible for the UK government to militarily support the Germans, imho, even in the face of Soviet aggression, so long as Hitler pursued an expansionist policy, plus I think Stalin was much too shrewd to have initiated hostilities.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 03:41 PM   #14

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Action Francaise takes over France in 1934. Charles Maurras proclaimed Prime Minister and dictator with an Orleanist figurehead King.

France annexes the Saar in 1935.

France declares war on Germany in 1937 when the Germans attempt to militarize the Rhineland [1]

France, using Guerre-éclair[2] tactics, reaches Koblenz in just under 2 and a half weeks. This great success convinces the Poles and Belgians to join the war.

The Lyon Agreement a secret pact between the powers waging war upon Germany:
-The Rhineland shall be split between France and Belgium, with the territories to the north going to Belgium and the south to France
-Upper Silesia, Gdansk, and the southern half parts of East Prussia shall be ceded to Poland
- Bavaria, Wurtemburg, and Baden to be separated from Germany.

The Lyon Agreement leaks out, and Britain is horrified at the notion of French dominance of Western Europe. Meanwhile, a Germany with Nazism defeated is an unstable Germany and one that could go red! Such a thing cannot be tolerated. Britain must go forth and help to maintain the balance of power on the continent.

There you have it.
Britain and Nazi Germany vs Action Francaise France, Poland, and Belgium

Considering that after WW1, the British were drafting war plans against the French (whom his majesty's government deemed to be the next threat to emerge from the continent, the revival of Germany was unexpected), this doesn't sound too implausable.


[1] One year later than historically, to become stronger in the face of a more hostile France
[2] French translation of Blitzkrieg. I heard somewhere (I think on this forum somewhere) that DeGaulle was one of the first people to conceive of the concept of a Blitzkrieg
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:23 PM   #15

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The French.. Vichy France... was quite positively an ally of Germany.
They fought battles against the British.
There was a widespread feeling that Liberal Democratic ideals had sent France down the wrong path. Made it weak. And Patriotic, Nationalist Fascism was the way to go.

The now held idea that Fascism is Evil was not clear cut at all back in 1939.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 05:33 PM   #16
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Nope, the residual France at Vichy was quite positively a defeated neutral nation.

No military unit of Vichy ever cooperated with any Axis military operation.

(The voluntary units in the eastern front were an entirely different stuff, not official and largely from the non-Vichy [occupied] zone of France)

Even more relevant, in spite of the British distrust and systematic attacks, the Vichy Navy did never cooperate with the Axis and actually chose a brave suicide in Toulon at the face of imminent German capture.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 08:20 PM   #17

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Nope, the residual France at Vichy was quite positively a defeated neutral nation.

No military unit of Vichy ever cooperated with any Axis military operation.

(The voluntary units in the eastern front were an entirely different stuff, not official and largely from the non-Vichy [occupied] zone of France)

Even more relevant, in spite of the British distrust and systematic attacks, the Vichy Navy did never cooperate with the Axis and actually chose a brave suicide in Toulon at the face of imminent German capture.
Vichy industry was utilized by the axis. Hitler even coerced Laval into sticking frenchmen into German factories so there would be more Germans in the army.

Though I do agree with you that there wasn't direct military assistance.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 08:43 PM   #18
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Vichy industry was utilized by the axis. Hitler even coerced Laval into sticking frenchmen into German factories so there would be more Germans in the army.

Though I do agree with you that there wasn't direct military assistance.
That's because it was never any Axis power.

As any other defeated nation, they had little chance against any coercion of the powerful Germans.

There were certainly some prominent collaborationists within this regime, even if usually not so cooperative as suggested by hostile sources.

But for the III Reich they were always just another humiliated conquered former enemy, analogous to a colony for any other power of the time.

They were never part of the Axis military forces, in spite of the systematic British provocations.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 10:17 PM   #19

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Action Francaise takes over France in 1934. Charles Maurras proclaimed Prime Minister and dictator with an Orleanist figurehead King.

France annexes the Saar in 1935.

France declares war on Germany in 1937 when the Germans attempt to militarize the Rhineland [1]

France, using Guerre-éclair[2] tactics, reaches Koblenz in just under 2 and a half weeks. This great success convinces the Poles and Belgians to join the war.

The Lyon Agreement a secret pact between the powers waging war upon Germany:
-The Rhineland shall be split between France and Belgium, with the territories to the north going to Belgium and the south to France
-Upper Silesia, Gdansk, and the southern half parts of East Prussia shall be ceded to Poland
- Bavaria, Wurtemburg, and Baden to be separated from Germany.
An interesting scenario but the French fascists were not strong enough in 1934 and the nation would never accept a monarch again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
Nope, the residual France at Vichy was quite positively a defeated neutral nation.

No military unit of Vichy ever cooperated with any Axis military operation.

(The voluntary units in the eastern front were an entirely different stuff, not official and largely from the non-Vichy [occupied] zone of France)

Even more relevant, in spite of the British distrust and systematic attacks, the Vichy Navy did never cooperate with the Axis and actually chose a brave suicide in Toulon at the face of imminent German capture.
correct, it seems that Admiral Darlan kept his word to the British after all...
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Old November 12th, 2012, 10:45 PM   #20

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Vichy troops and naval forces resistance to the Anglo-American Operation Torch appears to be more substantial than generally known. The French navy did sortie to engage Torch naval vessels, fighting bravely, taking substantial losses. Army resistance was somewhat scattered, but rather spirited in many instances. Most historians are of the opinion that the Vichy forces that put up strong resistance did so more for the honor of their service and a general hatred for the British. They were not really supporting the German efforts in North Africa. A very odd and tenuous situation.
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