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Old November 12th, 2012, 11:08 PM   #21

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Vichy troops and naval forces resistance to the Anglo-American Operation Torch appears to be more substantial than generally known. The French navy did sortie to engage Torch naval vessels, fighting bravely, taking substantial losses. Army resistance was somewhat scattered, but rather spirited in many instances. Most historians are of the opinion that the Vichy forces that put up strong resistance did so more for the honor of their service and a general hatred for the British. They were not really supporting the German efforts in North Africa. A very odd and tenuous situation.
Correct, Charles Nogues was definetly not a supporter of Germany and was only loyal to France.
After the battle of France there was a wide spread hatred for the British, the French felt like the British had abandonned them and let them bleed for their wars.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 02:58 AM   #22

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Or if he had persuaded Stalin to invade Poland first. He could have used it as a means of presenting himself as the savior of western Europe..
Until he broke his word in March 1939 and took over the rump of Czechoslovakia, I see no problem in France and the UK forming an alliance with Nazi Germany, over a unprovoked Soviet attack against any Eastern European nation.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 03:02 AM   #23

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A fascist UK is probably less counterfactual than any of the other scenarios mentioned here. Oswald Moseley had some support, after all..
His party didn't have a single MP in parliament.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:28 AM   #24

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A Germano-Franco-British triumvirate? Germany offers Scandinavia including Denmark, plus the Baltic States, to Britain. France takes Iberia and Southern Europe. Germany takes Central Europe and the rest. Leave Japan to the US. Could that have worked as a potential template for an alternative conquest?

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It's difficult to imagine an autonomous France being willing partners with the Germans.
Why not? They were both descendant realms of the Empire of the Franks.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 13th, 2012 at 04:36 AM.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:37 AM   #25
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Why not? They were both descendant realms of the Empire of the Franks.
A lot had happened between the Frankish empire/nations and 1939
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:41 AM   #26

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Well, guys have divorced and then got back together. Burton and Taylor did it several times.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:50 AM   #27
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Well, guys have divorced and then got back together. Burton and Taylor did it several times.
That was the 60's, people were more open back then...probably due to all the drugs and long hair, man
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Old November 13th, 2012, 04:55 AM   #28

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But Burton never wore long hair. Funny.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:36 AM   #29

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If Germany had not invaded Poland in 1939, but instead asked only for Danzig and transit rights across the Polish corridor immediately, and the cession of the Polish corridor later, in return for supporting the recreation of a mighty Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, encompassing all the rest of Poland, most of Lithuania and large parts of Belarus and the Ukraine. Poland could probably have been nudged into becoming a German ally on such terms.

If then, Germany and Poland had launched a full scale attack upon the USSR, instead of attacking west, they would likely have gained the benevolent neutrality of both the British and French governments, with the USA standing aloof. Britain and France would likely have enriched themselves by offering massive economic assistance to Germany. As for the peoples of Britain and France, and the USA too for that matter, the German-Soviet War would have resembled the Spanish Civil War writ large, with large numbers of ideological volunteers assisting both sides.

Chances are, the USSR would have fallen in this scenario, but if it didn't, and actually withstood the German onslaught before driving back into Poland and then Germany, the British and French would have grown increasingly alarmed at the spread of Bolshevism into central Europe. In this situation, it is concievable that both Britain and France would have become full military Allies of Nazi Germany, to defend central Europe against the spread of Communism.
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Old November 13th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #30
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The problem is that we have to keep saying 'If X had done...' something that X, in the conditions of his own country and time, never would have done. This is the trouble with counter-factuals. Remember how powerful were the forces that prevented Baldwin from thinking of re-arming, and recall how disgusted educated people were with the whole smelly appeasement business as shown with regard to Ethiopia, Spain and Czechoslovakia. Why should any sensible British politician have risked it?
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