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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:18 PM   #1
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What conditions would have made an alliance between Nazi Germany & the U.K. in WW2


possible? Mind you an alliance meaning autonomous partners rather than what we saw with Vichy. Also let's avoid extreme counterfactuals like a Fascist U.K. and the like.

Perhaps the Soviets making a preemptive strike on Poland earlier in the 30s or perhaps a move on Iran?

How about an alliance between Germany and the U.S. or Germany and France? What conditions would have been necessary in both of those?

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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:24 PM   #2

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If Hitler had kept quiet in 1939 then he cold have used the winter war to form an alliance to the UK against the USSR.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 09:29 PM   #3
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If Hitler had kept quiet in 1939 then he cold have used the winter war to form an alliance to the UK against the USSR.
Or if he had persuaded Stalin to invade Poland first. He could have used it as a means of presenting himself as the savior of western Europe.

For U.S.A. and Germany I suppose that it would have depended on Japan being allies with the U.S.S.R. and for France/Germany I'm not sure. It's difficult to imagine an autonomous France being willing partners with the Germans.
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Old November 8th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #4
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If Herr Hitler had kept quiet in 1939 it's quite unlikely that there have been any Winter War.

Back to the OP, IMHO only the extremely unlikely possibility of a simultaneous attack of Uncle Joe against both the UK & the III Reich could have made even remotely possible such an alliance, given the obvious inherent incompatibilities between both powers.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:25 PM   #5

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Joint Nazi-Polish invasion of the USSR? (however unlikely that is)

You're more likely to get a coalition than a formal alliance.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #6

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Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Joint Nazi-Polish invasion of the USSR? (however unlikely that is)

You're more likely to get a coalition than a formal alliance.
The only thing that the Polish hated more than the Soviets were the Germans. I do not see how an alliance would get much support.

A Soviet invasion of the rest of Europe would probably force the other European nations to form a coalition in order to stop the Communists.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:45 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mephistopheles View Post
possible? Mind you an alliance meaning autonomous partners rather than what we saw with Vichy. Also let's avoid extreme counterfactuals like a Fascist U.K. and the like.

Perhaps the Soviets making a preemptive strike on Poland earlier in the 30s or perhaps a move on Iran?

How about an alliance between Germany and the U.S. or Germany and France? What conditions would have been necessary in both of those?
Surely only extreme counterfactuals could do it. Their interests and ideologies (except in the case of the richest English) were utterly opposed. Only a really active revolutionary movement would have led the appeasers to turn Pétainist, and there wasn't much hope of that outside a few restricted areas.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:31 PM   #8

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Originally Posted by bartieboy View Post
The only thing that the Polish hated more than the Soviets were the Germans. I do not see how an alliance would get much support.

A Soviet invasion of the rest of Europe would probably force the other European nations to form a coalition in order to stop the Communists.
Wouldn't the Soviets be the deemed the bigger threat?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 01:49 PM   #9

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A fascist UK is probably less counterfactual than any of the other scenarios mentioned here. Oswald Moseley had some support, after all.

I don't think an alliance would ever have been possible, but I do think a better diplomat than Hitler could have persuaded Britain to stay out of it altogether.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 02:01 PM   #10

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Wouldn't the Soviets be the deemed the bigger threat?
Good question and I'd like to respond with a quote
Poland's terrible strategic position (flanked on three sides since the German occupation of Czechoslovakia); the German West Wall, when when completed next winter, will discourage France and Britain from attacking Germany in the west and thereby aiding Poland; and finally Russia. I have dined and drunk with a dozen poles this week - from the Foreign Office, the Army, and the old Pilsudski legionnaires who run Polskie Radio - and they will not bring themselves to realize that they cannot afford the luxury of being enemies of both Russia and Germany and that they must choose and that if they bring in Russia along with France and Britain they are saved. They point out the dangers of Russian help. To be sure, there is a danger... that the Red Army, once on Polish soil, will not leave, that it will Bolshevize the country with its propaganda (this country has been so misruled by the colonels that no doubt it does offer fertile ground to the Bolsheviks), and so on... Then make your peace with the Nazis... Never! they say.

For you see the Soviets actually offered a pact of military assistance to the British, French and Poles with the promise that in case of a German attack they would rush to Poland's aid.
But due to the Polish (rightfully) distrusting the Soviets and the slow and hesitant reaction from the French and British the pact would not materialize.
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