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Old November 12th, 2012, 09:37 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
All the initial 13 states + Vermont were independent before joining the Union as well. The Articles were more like the modern UN than the US. People conventionally said the United States are, not the United States is.

Besides, the republic period was the darkest time in Texas history. There was a reason the Texans gave it up. Would they have fared well all alone?
That is a good question. As much as, I believe, our Texas posters would like to say, "We would be okay", I also believe that the safety net of the other 27 states was too much for them not to accept.

Thank God that Texas is a part of our Union but times were different then.


I'm sitting here thinking of how to be realistic and humorous at the same time and I was thinking that 15 years ago they should have seceded and crowned the Bush family as Regents. They should have founded an army and imported Ronald Reagan as head of the Joint Chief's of Staff. Heck, only Nebraska could have defeated them.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 10:29 AM   #12

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Originally Posted by Aulus Plautius View Post
I agree with TJ. The seccession of the Deep South would have resulted in the same civil war. Lincoln had the option to wait them out in the original time line, but chose not to.
Lincoln DID wait it out. While the Confederacy was moblilizing, Lincoln didn't call up ONE SINGLE troop, until Fort Sumter was fired on. He waited until the LAST POSSIBLE moment to send provisions to Fort Sumter, and sent notice to Governor Pickens that he was sending provisions only and would make no attempt to reinforce the fort if they were not interfered with.

Lincoln had every reason to wait, for precisely the reason that he (and everyone else) knew that a shooting war would bring Virginia and other states into the Confederacy. But also for that exact reason, the Deep South was bound and determined to start a shooting war.

So although I disagree with your premise, I agree with your conclusion. War was inevitable, but it was because the Deep South states NEEDED Virginia and the other Upper South states (not to mention the fact that they needed to solidify support behind them at home).
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Old November 12th, 2012, 10:32 AM   #13

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Originally Posted by tjadams View Post
I have extremely strong opinions on Lincoln and the war, but when I write
those I get attacked (yadda yadda, from cut and paste historians).
Gee, cutting and pasting from primary sources, and providing links. How unprofessional. Guess we should just all sit around and spout off our opinions at each other?
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Old November 12th, 2012, 11:07 AM   #14

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Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Besides, the republic period was the darkest time in Texas history. There was a reason the Texans gave it up....
I don't know if I would call the ROTexas years 'the darkest'.
Granted the early years were hard, just as with the US and any
new nation grappling with setting up the infrastructure. But the
population of Texas grew from about 30,000 Anglos & Tejanos,
to over 100,000 by the time it was admitted as a state. That was
an increase of about 7,000 per year. And guess what, Texas and
the US sat down and peaceably agreed on their common border
without anyone getting killed. The same could not be said with
the US and Mexico in the 1840s.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 11:09 AM   #15

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Originally Posted by Aulus Plautius View Post
WeisSaul does ask an interesting OP.

What if it was only Texas that seceded? Texas is a unique case having been independent before joining the union.

How many states could have seceded before Lincoln would have saw the need to call up troops?
Texas was happy to be a state within the Union up until the Republican
Party and Lincoln changed it. If only Texas had broken away, I don't see
other Southern states following her lead, as at the time, she wasn't a major
Southern power that the other sister states had.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:28 PM   #16

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Originally Posted by Aulus Plautius View Post
I agree with TJ. The seccession of the Deep South would have resulted in the same civil war. Lincoln had the option to wait them out in the original time line, but chose not to.
No he did not. The Confederacy attacked Fort Sumter, and was committed to the conquest of Kentucky and Missouri and the installation of pro-Confederate governments. After Fort Sumter and Davis' call for troops, Lincoln could hardly pretend the nation wasn't at war.
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Old November 12th, 2012, 12:29 PM   #17

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Originally Posted by Rongo View Post
Lincoln DID wait it out. While the Confederacy was moblilizing, Lincoln didn't call up ONE SINGLE troop, until Fort Sumter was fired on. He waited until the LAST POSSIBLE moment to send provisions to Fort Sumter, and sent notice to Governor Pickens that he was sending provisions only and would make no attempt to reinforce the fort if they were not interfered with.

Lincoln had every reason to wait, for precisely the reason that he (and everyone else) knew that a shooting war would bring Virginia and other states into the Confederacy. But also for that exact reason, the Deep South was bound and determined to start a shooting war.

So although I disagree with your premise, I agree with your conclusion. War was inevitable, but it was because the Deep South states NEEDED Virginia and the other Upper South states (not to mention the fact that they needed to solidify support behind them at home).
As usual, I agree with Rongo's excellent post.
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