Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Speculative History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Speculative History Speculative History Forum - Alternate History, What If Questions, Pseudo History, and anything outside the boundaries of mainstream historical research


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 16th, 2012, 06:41 PM   #121

Hresvelgr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,025
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
I did not say he is for sure winged. Just that we can not say he is certainly not winged. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to make out whether he has wings or just very big feathers.

Click the image to open in full size.
The Aztec artists were pretty straightforward when it came to drawing wings. This is a plume of feathers consistent with depictions of what was often worn by nobles in ceremonial regalia and battle outfits. This also looks more like Quetzalcoatl's alternate aspect of Ehecatl than his Feathered Serpent form. Ehecatl was always depicted as more manlike and with a bill.
Hresvelgr is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 16th, 2012, 06:58 PM   #122

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
I did not say he is for sure winged. Just that we can not say he is certainly not winged. Like I said, sometimes it's hard to make out whether he has wings or just very big feathers.

Click the image to open in full size.
Quetzalcoatl was known as the "feathered serpent." His legend may be associated with what may have once been celestial object. A comet that appeared to moved in a serpentine fashion and had outgassing that could have made it also look "feathered." A unique event viewed all over the world and an object the Chinese and other cultures may also have interpreted as serpentine. If the legend of Quetzalcoatl was based on the appearance of this unique object in the heavens, it would be naturally assumed by such ancient peoples that this object was flying. Wings might have been added in some cultures to make this flying ability appear more logical as all creatures that do fly also appear to have wings.
Zarin is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 08:41 PM   #123

Mandate of Heaven's Avatar
Ate too much
 
Joined: Jul 2010
From: Not sure what it is
Posts: 6,117

I am very fortunate to be discussing a figure as interesting as Quetzalcoatl with people as knowledgable as you guys. What do you think of Mormon's assertion that Quezalcoatl left us and will one day return to rule a la Jesus Christ. Is this authentically American? Also, is Quetzalcoatl a god of resurrection like some suggested?
Mandate of Heaven is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 09:57 PM   #124
AAS
Academician
 
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 71

No... That would be 'Tlahuizcalpantecuhtli' or 'Lord of the star of the dawn'
AAS is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 10:21 PM   #125

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandate of Heaven View Post
I am very fortunate to be discussing a figure as interesting as Quetzalcoatl with people as knowledgable as you guys. What do you think of Mormon's assertion that Quezalcoatl left us and will one day return to rule a la Jesus Christ. Is this authentically American? Also, is Quetzalcoatl a god of resurrection like some suggested?
Joseph Smith, who was the founder of the Mormon faith reputedly discovered golden tablets at the Hill Cumorah in New York State. He supposedly received visions from these tablets. Primarily of an angel called Moroni. At least what he thought was an angel. This angel revealed to Joseph Smith what was to eventually become the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith may have had some familiarity with what was then known of Pre-Columbian civilization at the time of his vision. It was long believed that the Emperor Moctezoma of the Aztecs mistakenly thought Cortez was the god Quetzalcoatl returning as predicted to visit and alter the Aztec destiny. Cortez's arrival in Mexico did happen in the precise year of Ce Acatl. The exact year predicted for Quetzalcoatl's return according to Aztec prophecy.
Joseph Smith may have read the Spanish accounts of Cortez's conquest of Mexico and mixed this information with his visions from the Angel Moroni.
What would be undeniable proof of this incredible story would be scientific scrutiny of the actual golden tablets themselves. Only copies of them exist in the Mormon Museum in Salt Lake City and you can see for yourself the fascimiles of the golden tablets by going to wiki under the search "golden tablets."
Now what I am about to say will sound "weird and far fetched" to some ears. And what is to follow is merely a form of imaginative speculation.
I have always suspected that the Atlanteans may have developed a mysterious material called orichalcum, which according to Plato and also mentioned in his Timaeus and Critias dialogues is Greek for copper based. I suspect that this "orichalcum" may have had electro-conductive capabilities. Which copper is a well known material very capable of such. And when combined with gold this orichalcum was super-conductive as well. There was a third ingredient within the orichacum, a crystal, called atal, but it no longer exists. The crystal actually did the recording and provided the latent energy to drive the device. A latent energy caused by any exposure to sunlight. Once sealed inside the combined orichalcum and gold, the crystal could never be turned into a mono-molecular level. Which became its' inevitable fate outside the gold/copper matrix, everywhere all over the world. This was a very rare form of crystal unique to Atlantis just as the crystal Lorimar is unique to the Dominican Republic.
I suggest that the Atlanteans may have discovered a way to enable these gold tablets to record and retain mental images that once touched by human hands would convey images directly to the brain by nerve impulse. This to whomever made physical contact with the plates. Once Joseph Smith had touched the plates, these images were immediately transferred to his brain and would seem to him totally real. As a vision. A sort of Visual Reality like what is currently being explored in computer graphics. Also BTW being done through a combination of crystal, gold and copper.
Joseph Smith would then have believed he was actually communicating with the indivual who originally recorded these images. A human Atlantean named Moroni. The entire Book of Mormon was conveyed to Joseph Smith, but due to his delay in writing it all down, some of the information might have been somewhat distorted. The original gold plates have strangely disappeared.
The Book of Mormon is about an appearance of a Christ like figure in the New World supposedly occurring immediately after Jesus had fulfilled his mission in the Old World. Such an individual may have actually been a historical reality. He is known among many Native American legends and by several names. Quetzalcoatl, Virachoca and Kulkulcan being just a few of the possible individuals connected to this extensive legend. He appears to have been a white man with a beard and appears to fit the classical image we currently associate with Jesus of Nazareth. I suspect that this individual may not have been Jesus but actually an exiled Atlantean prophet.
I have considered the possibility that other golden tablets such as Joseph Smith discovered buried in the Hill Cumorah may have also been purposely placed in several other locations around the world. This was done to insure that a historical record of Atlantis be eventually discovered and finally realized. All these placements were implemented before the final subsumation of the Island/Continent into the ocean about 12,000 years ago. I suspect one of these repositories is in Egypt and the left paw of the Great Sphinx points directly to it. For some unexplained reason, the left paw extends slightly further than the right one. Go figure? Of course this is all imaginative speculation, but how interesting it all would be if it turns out to be true? No?
Zarin is offline  
Old November 17th, 2012, 10:36 AM   #126

Moros's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
I suggest that the Atlanteans may have discovered a way to enable these gold tablets to record and retain mental images that once touched by human hands would convey images directly to the brain by nerve impulse. This to whomever made physical contact with the plates. Once Joseph Smith had touched the plates, these images were immediately transferred to his brain and would seem to him totally real. As a vision. A sort of Visual Reality like what is currently being explored in computer graphics. Also BTW being done through a combination of crystal, gold and copper.
Joseph Smith would then have believed he was actually communicating with the indivual who originally recorded these images. A human Atlantean named Moroni. The entire Book of Mormon was conveyed to Joseph Smith, but due to his delay in writing it all down, some of the information might have been somewhat distorted. The original gold plates have strangely disappeared.
The Book of Mormon is about an appearance of a Christ like figure in the New World supposedly occurring immediately after Jesus had fulfilled his mission in the Old World. Such an individual may have actually been a historical reality. He is known among many Native American legends and by several names. Quetzalcoatl, Virachoca and Kulkulcan being just a few of the possible individuals connected to this extensive legend. He appears to have been a white man with a beard and appears to fit the classical image we currently associate with Jesus of Nazareth. I suspect that this individual may not have been Jesus but actually an exiled Atlantean prophet.
So you want to rewrite Mormon pseudo-history to suit your own pseudo-history theory?

Regardless of what they were or were not, none of what you say agrees with Joseph Smith's own account of finding the golden tablets.

The angel Moroni appeared several times (over a number of years) before Smith touched, or had even seen, the golden plates. Moroni also appeared to other people and to Joseph Smith after the golden plates were no longer around.

The message on the plates was not fed into Smith's brain instantly on touching them. Smith took the golden plates home, and it took him two years to translate them into English.

People other than Joseph Smith claimed to have handled the golden plates, and none of them reported experiencing mental image transfers or instant understandings about what was on the plates.

The golden plates are described as being very similar to a written book, with the gold plates bound together with rings, and being covered in an engraved script.

The Book of Mormon is much more than the appearance of a Christ like figure in the New World. It purports to tell the history of the American population, from the original inhabitants who arrived shortly after the Tower of Babel dispersion, to a later migration of Jewish exiles from Jerusalem in c.600 BC, and their subsequent history down to c.400 AD, (including, along the way, a visit from Jesus to confirm their status as God's chosen people).

I'm not saying that the Atlanteans, if they existed, couldn't have developed the technology you suggest. But I am saying that the golden tablets supposedly found and handled by Joseph Smith do not fit your proposed theory.

Last edited by Moros; November 17th, 2012 at 10:44 AM.
Moros is offline  
Old November 17th, 2012, 11:14 AM   #127

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moros View Post
So you want to rewrite Mormon pseudo-history to suit your own pseudo-history theory?

Regardless of what they were or were not, none of what you say agrees with Joseph Smith's own account of finding the golden tablets.

The angel Moroni appeared several times (over a number of years) before Smith touched, or had even seen, the golden plates. Moroni also appeared to other people and to Joseph Smith after the golden plates were no longer around.

The message on the plates was not fed into Smith's brain instantly on touching them. Smith took the golden plates home, and it took him two years to translate them into English.

People other than Joseph Smith claimed to have handled the golden plates, and none of them reported experiencing mental image transfers or instant understandings about what was on the plates.

The golden plates are described as being very similar to a written book, with the gold plates bound together with rings, and being covered in an engraved script.

The Book of Mormon is much more than the appearance of a Christ like figure in the New World. It purports to tell the history of the American population, from the original inhabitants who arrived shortly after the Tower of Babel dispersion, to a later migration of Jewish exiles from Jerusalem in c.600 BC, and their subsequent history down to c.400 AD, (including, along the way, a visit from Jesus to confirm their status as God's chosen people).

I'm not saying that the Atlanteans, if they existed, couldn't have developed the technology you suggest. But I am saying that the golden tablets supposedly found and handled by Joseph Smith do not fit your proposed theory.
Well at least we can agree that was the story that you were told. And it all comes down to what one chooses to believe. I wasn't attempting to give a full Mormonesque explanation for the story of Quetzalcoatl. Especially since I am not a Mormon and do not specifically adhere to Mormon beliefs. I was merely speculating on a possibility. You may think it was all a religious experience that occurred over many years. One Joseph Smith porports to relate. Which my logical mind suggests was quite likely more invention than any angelic communication. However, my creative mind also looked for other potential possibilities. I merely offered it for perusal. Stating it was "speculation." And you did not discredit the actual concept. Only added details you may have been instructed from or learned about orthodox Mormonism. Which was not the essence or the purpose of my post. It would be truly fascinating to examine these "golden tablets to see what they are truly all about. No?
However, if you wish to create an OP on Mormonism, good Luck! This forum does not advocate or empower free discussions directly related to religions per se.'
And for your information "pseudo history" is presenting information as if it actually was history but without any substantiation. Speculation and pseudo history are two entirely different things. "Pseudo history" is often a buzzword used by people who have no real intellectual basis for criticism. They use it primarily as an ad hominem and a blanket form of derision. Something no truly intelligent and open mind would use without honestly perusing the information discerned as "pseudo history." There is so much "spin' out there that it is becoming extremely difficult to tell whose history is pseudo and whose is reliable.

Last edited by Zarin; November 17th, 2012 at 11:27 AM.
Zarin is offline  
Old November 17th, 2012, 11:52 AM   #128

Moros's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,000

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
You may think it was all a religious experience that occurred over many years. One Joseph Smith porports to relate. Which my logical mind suggests was quite likely more invention than any angelic communication. However, my creative mind also looked for other potential possibilities. I merely offered it for perusal. Stating it was "speculation." And you did not discredit the actual concept. Only added details you may have been instructed from or learned about orthodox Mormonism. Which was not the essence or the purpose of my post. It would be truly fascinating to examine these "golden tablets to see what they are truly all about. No?
However, if you wish to create an OP on Mormonism, good Luck! This forum does not advocate or empower free discussions directly related to religions per se.'
And for your information "pseudo history" is presenting information as if it actually was history but without any substantiation. Speculation and pseudo history are two entirely different things. "Pseudo history" is often a buzzword used by people who have no real intellectual basis for criticism. They use it primarily as an ad hominem and a blanket form of derision. Something no truly intelligent and open mind would use without honestly perusing the information discerned as "pseudo history." There is so much "spin' out there that it is becoming extremely difficult to tell whose history is pseudo and whose is reliable.
The speculation in your post about what the Book of Mormon might have been seemed to indicate an uninformed knowledge about Joseph Smith's own account of the golden plates. I was attempting to provide you with the only information we have about the plates. That you knew about Smith's account, but had dismissed it inorder to replace it with your own theory about Atlantean intervention, was not clear from your post.


I was not using pseudo-history as a perjorative term. Only to mean a class of history which, as we agree, has no substantial evidence. Joseph Smith's golden plates and the existence of Atlantis both come under this heading, although speculation about them is fascinating, and long may it engage creative minds.
Moros is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012, 02:37 AM   #129

Zarin's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 2,465

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moros View Post
The speculation in your post about what the Book of Mormon might have been seemed to indicate an uninformed knowledge about Joseph Smith's own account of the golden plates. I was attempting to provide you with the only information we have about the plates. That you knew about Smith's account, but had dismissed it inorder to replace it with your own theory about Atlantean intervention, was not clear from your post.


I was not using pseudo-history as a perjorative term. Only to mean a class of history which, as we agree, has no substantial evidence. Joseph Smith's golden plates and the existence of Atlantis both come under this heading, although speculation about them is fascinating, and long may it engage creative minds.
Your additional information further enhanced other readers' potential knowledge of one of the possibilities around how Mormonism began. And I did intend to dismiss Joseph Smith's explanation. Providing a speculation on another possibility. Which is what speculation is about. You merely filled in what every Mormon probably knows or believes.
However, I would tend to somewhat disagree with the contention that Mormonism and Atlantis both belong to the category of "pseudo history."
The definition of pseudo is spurious (false) or sham. Since no one else saw or heard the angel Moroni, this recollection might be reasonably considered a sham. However, in the case of Joseph Smith, the golden tablets offer some possible credulity and should be opened up for scrutiny.
However, in the case of Atlantis that is another matter entirely. Plato certainly cannot be accused of creating a "falsehood" or any "sham." Moreover, a consistent argument can be made for the potential existence of Atlantis. Especially in light of all the many previously unknown archeological sites being uncovered all over the globe. And as with any archeological scrutiny, it is still an ongoing investigation. One, whose conclusions have not yet been reached. So this particular subject cannot be labelled as a falsehood or sham. As you would label "pseudo history." That would be exactly like judging a suspect guilty before any trial was fully completed.
Zarin is offline  
Old November 18th, 2012, 05:45 AM   #130

Hresvelgr's Avatar
Historian
 
Joined: Mar 2012
From: New Hampshire
Posts: 1,025
Blog Entries: 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
Your additional information further enhanced other readers' potential knowledge of one of the possibilities around how Mormonism began. And I did intend to dismiss Joseph Smith's explanation. Providing a speculation on another possibility. Which is what speculation is about. You merely filled in what every Mormon probably knows or believes.
However, I would tend to somewhat disagree with the contention that Mormonism and Atlantis both belong to the category of "pseudo history."
The definition of pseudo is spurious (false) or sham. Since no one else saw or heard the angel Moroni, this recollection might be reasonably considered a sham. However, in the case of Joseph Smith, the golden tablets offer some possible credulity and should be opened up for scrutiny.
However, in the case of Atlantis that is another matter entirely. Plato certainly cannot be accused of creating a "falsehood" or any "sham." Moreover, a consistent argument can be made for the potential existence of Atlantis. Especially in light of all the many previously unknown archeological sites being uncovered all over the globe. And as with any archeological scrutiny, it is still an ongoing investigation. One, whose conclusions have not yet been reached. So this particular subject cannot be labelled as a falsehood or sham. As you would label "pseudo history." That would be exactly like judging a suspect guilty before any trial was fully completed.
The fact that the Book of Mormon's account of pre-Columbian history in no way matches actual history as discovered by archaeology and written in pre-Columbian native writings makes it pretty clear it's pseudohistory.
Hresvelgr is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Speculative History

Tags
comparative, mythology


Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Comparative mythology Illumanation Art and Cultural History 3 April 27th, 2012 01:08 PM
Comparative Mythology: Jesus, Mithras and Osiris Thessalonian Art and Cultural History 0 December 11th, 2011 02:56 AM
Question on a comparative essay LuciusDomitius History Help 1 October 24th, 2011 01:45 PM
Pitfalls of Comparative History? Someone History Help 0 August 24th, 2010 03:46 AM
Roman Mythology from Greek Mythology i_repeat_history History Book Reviews 0 October 3rd, 2007 08:11 AM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.