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Old November 19th, 2012, 08:56 AM   #141

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
The sky is an essential component of many mythologies [like underground].

In general I would think that the place we can see or know that they are there, but without the possibility to reach them, become something especial. In some way "supernatural".

On the other hand, to put the core of a mythology in a reachable place is a risk [someone can go there and discover that what mythology suggests doesn't exist].
Yes, the distance may have well been the other side of the galaxy . . . we could only reach the sky with our imagination.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:03 AM   #142

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It's not difficult to make a guess as to why gods almost universally live in the sky - given that Sun worship is prevalent amongst almost all mythologies, and the phenomena that affect human societies (wind, rain, heat, light etc) come from the sky, it is not difficult to understand why early societies would conclude that the sky is the realm of the gods.

Flying aliens have little to do with it.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:45 AM   #143

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So a great philosopher can't also have an imagination? When Plato tells us in the Symposium about human's originally being spherical with two heads and four arms and four legs, who were later divided into two as a punishment from Zeus, we have to view this as legitimate human prehistory because Plato only ever wrote the literal truth?
Of course any human being can and most do have an imagination. Plato certainly did. But for anyone to assert in blanket form (as some posters have done) that Atlantis was totally "imagined as some fantasy" undermines Plato's obvious capacity to collate information from many different sources and write what he gathered into an intelligent compendium.
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We have no way of knowing if Plato himself believed Atlantis was historical. His aim was philosophy, not history.
Of course we do. This information was presented as "history" by Plato. He certainly didn't preface all of this with any other designation. Moreover, he used this "history" to build the foundation for philosophy in both dialogues. With the Critias being far more expansive. Apparently Plato must have felt further elaboration on Atlantis was required by the many students who must have been fascinated by this land when Plato first presented it in the Timaeus.
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He records elsewhere that Gyges of Lydia, after an earthquake, found a hollow bronze horse, inside of which was a giant wearing a ring that made the wearer invisible, which Gyges then used to became king. Did Plato write this because he believed it true? I don't know. Did he write it because it helped him illustrate a philisophical point? Yes.
There were many concepts believed in by the Greeks that we consider ludicruous today. That doesn't mean the Greeks considered them so. You have simply re-inforced what I have always maintained. That Plato believed Atlantis was real and added further logical and imaginative expositions to flesh it out based on this belief. Something no writer of history is not "guilty" of.

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The tribe of Atlantes lived around mount Atlas, which the Greeks say is where the name Atlantes came from. No ancient writer links this tribe, or mount Atlas, with the Atlantis story.
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Yet, a tribe of Atlanteans was mentioned by someone other than Plato. So Atlanteans (Atlantes) people related to the mythology of Atlas were mentioned by writers other than Plato. So was Atlantis also connected to Atlas as well. And Plato obviously considered the Atlantes of Morocco as a credible "historical" source to validate what the Egyptians had revealed to Solon. And these Atlantes would have been as close to the location of Atlantis as the Greeks could get.
If anyone heard of a legend of a people who worshipped bears on an island in the middle of a lake, it would be natural to associate these same people with a people nearby this island, who also worshipped bears. Plato most likely knew of these "Atlantes" in Morocco, because the mountain range's name is one apllied by the Greeks also after Atlas. Herodotus showed earlier than Plato that the Greeks considered the Great Ocean to the west as the ocean of Atlas or as we now call it, the ocean of Atlantis. Moreover, the Garden of the Hesperides is also located in Morocco. The majority of information of Atlantis, as per Plato, is based on a Greek idea of the mythos around Atlas. This does not mean that the Egyptians saw this same mythos the way the Greeks did. Plato merely took this Egyptian information and made it Greek based on his very deeply embedded cultural influence and his philosophical intentions. However, this does not automatically occlude Plato's appreciation of the Egyptian information as historically valid. If anyone knows anything about ancient Greece, one knows that the Greeks had a great amount of respect for the Egyptians and what was believed to be their "knowledge" of history and ancient mysteries. And Plato used this Egyptian foundation to flesh out the information he presented in both dialogues. And yes, I have already agreed that Plato added his own interpretations to this Egyptian material. Some of it, highly imaginative and obviously made with many Greek references. There is little doubt about this. However, this "adaption" does not eliminate what Plato took from the original Egyptian material. Information he believed was true. And information that may have been lost to us thru the course of history. Or staring us in the face, but so far unoticed or refused to be noticed.
What would be much more interesting would be the actual terminology the Egyptians used in the original telling of this to Solon. What this information was based on. And how the Egyptians presented it to Solon. Which, we unfortunately, do not yet have direct access to. But I suspect that an evaluation of how the Egyptians recorded their long range history might offer certain clues. That is if this long range history can be truly accessed and can be credibly established or reliably interpreted..
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No, I don't have 100% access to the sources Plato had. But again, evidence we don't have cannot be used as evidence for anything.
Evidence can be implied. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that Plato would have been very well informed as to any information available to Greek sources of his times. And that he would also have been highly well read and have access to other minds and many other informational resources besides his own memories. The Greeks did have a "written" language. Moreover, it is also well known that many wealthy Greeks had personal libraries containing numerous documents and literature available to not only to Plato's perusal, but also to other members of the numerous Greek academies. The original custodian of the Great Library of Alexandria was desperately after Aristotle's personal library, so he asked to "borrow" it. And only returned it to Athens long after copies were made of every single piece.
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I'm aware that this discussion about Plato & Atlantis is moving away from the OP. If you want to discuss this further, Zarin, maybe a new thread would be the best place?
This conundrum is easily solved. Merely ignore my post or return to the theme of the OP or do both. I have discovered that many people tend to read the OPs with the most interesting and illuminating content (and, sadly, often ones with the nastiest as well). And have not seen one that doesn't outbranch into many very interesting directions. Which I personally believe they should. Moreover, there are several other threads concerning this same subject. All of which have degenerated into ego, insult and ad hominem.
But let me add, that this one has been most enjoyable. Mainly because of the intelligent, dignified and very well mannered responses you have given. PLus educational and growth oriented. The way I have always desired to approach any subject. A discussion which doesn't descend into personal attacks, ad hominems and determinations designed for resolutions of the ego.
I am certainly very sorry to see your departure from this particular subject. It was becoming a very healthy exchange which was on its way to beautiful awareness.

Last edited by Zarin; November 19th, 2012 at 09:52 AM.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #144

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Thanks for sharing Bri.
You're welcome.

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Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
The sky is an essential component of many mythologies [like underground].

In general I would think that the place we can see or know that they are there, but without the possibility to reach them, become something especial. In some way "supernatural".

On the other hand, to put the core of a mythology in a reachable place is a risk [someone can go there and discover that what mythology suggests doesn't exist].
That is a good point. Although there have been many myths where the stories have been reachable to touch, realistically.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 10:00 AM   #145

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You're welcome.



That is a good point. Although there have been many myths where the stories have been reachable to touch, realistically.
So very very true. And far more have been "reachable and touchable" than the many doubters of mankind's past choose to acknowledge.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 10:03 AM   #146

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Originally Posted by Naomasa298 View Post
It's not difficult to make a guess as to why gods almost universally live in the sky - given that Sun worship is prevalent amongst almost all mythologies, and the phenomena that affect human societies (wind, rain, heat, light etc) come from the sky, it is not difficult to understand why early societies would conclude that the sky is the realm of the gods.

Flying aliens have little to do with it.
Plus, the sky held so many mysterious things in it. Things that could not be physically touched or held in the hands. So these things had to be explained in contextual ways everyone could relate to.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 12:38 PM   #147

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[quote=Zarin;1262261]
Quote:
This conundrum is easily solved. Merely ignore my post or return to the theme of the OP or do both. I have discovered that many people tend to read the OPs with the most interesting and illuminating content (and, sadly, often ones with the nastiest as well). And have not seen one that doesn't outbranch into many very interesting directions. Which I personally believe they should. Moreover, there are several other threads concerning this same subject. All of which have degenerated into ego, insult and ad hominem.
But let me add, that this one has been most enjoyable. Mainly because of the intelligent, dignified and very well mannered responses you have given. PLus educational and growth oriented. The way I have always desired to approach any subject. A discussion which doesn't descend into personal attacks, ad hominems and determinations designed for resolutions of the ego.
I am certainly very sorry to see your departure from this particular subject. It was becoming a very healthy exchange which was on its way to beautiful awareness.
Thank you for acknowledging my view-point. I agree that personal attacks and egotism spoil a good discussion, and am delighted to be engaging with an individual who restrains from (or has not even contemplated) degenerating into such a level.

As I said, this discussion need not be over. I just feel that focusing on it here might be construed as rude or unhelpful for people wishing to discuss or read about the OP. Personally (and I might be in a minority in this) I read a thread because the initial post sounds interesting to me. If the content then moves off topic and the original post is lost and left unanswered or undiscussed, I find that disappointing, no matter how fascinating the new subject matter might be. I would not wish it done to one of my own posts, so would rather not do it to someone else's.

Other threads might already exist on Atlantis, but that would be no reason not to start afresh with new contributors. If people truly want to follow our discussion, then highlighting a new thread would point them in the right direction.

Like you, I think that looking into Egyptian sources would be a fruitful area of research to learn more about the myth of Atlantis, since that is where Plato claimed the original account came from. This work looks at Egyptian mythology/cosmology and comes to one possible answer; Atlantis: Egyptian Genesis - Ian Driscoll, Ian Driscoll & Matthew Kurtz - Google Books.

Last edited by Moros; November 19th, 2012 at 12:46 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2012, 09:58 AM   #148

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[quote=Moros;1262453]
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Thank you for acknowledging my view-point. I agree that personal attacks and egotism spoil a good discussion, and am delighted to be engaging with an individual who restrains from (or has not even contemplated) degenerating into such a level.

As I said, this discussion need not be over. I just feel that focusing on it here might be construed as rude or unhelpful for people wishing to discuss or read about the OP. Personally (and I might be in a minority in this) I read a thread because the initial post sounds interesting to me. If the content then moves off topic and the original post is lost and left unanswered or undiscussed, I find that disappointing, no matter how fascinating the new subject matter might be. I would not wish it done to one of my own posts, so would rather not do it to someone else's.

Other threads might already exist on Atlantis, but that would be no reason not to start afresh with new contributors. If people truly want to follow our discussion, then highlighting a new thread would point them in the right direction.

Like you, I think that looking into Egyptian sources would be a fruitful area of research to learn more about the myth of Atlantis, since that is where Plato claimed the original account came from. This work looks at Egyptian mythology/cosmology and comes to one possible answer; Atlantis: Egyptian Genesis - Ian Driscoll, Ian Driscoll & Matthew Kurtz - Google Books.
Thanks for this link. I took a look at it, but will not explore its conclusions. I have, however, saved this link for later perusal. Which I will do once a project I am currently constructing is finally completed.
I am in the process of writing a series of E-books on Atlantis derived from what is called "Karmic Memory." What doubters would call pure "imagination." Or "fantasy." The first is already available.
Since I do not wish to have any contamination from other ideas, I am trying to avoid this by staying away from all other Atlantis input. Unfortunately, I have already been confronted by contamination from Plato. Strangely, some of what I am picking up through "Karmic Memory" connects to Plato, but also completely diverges from his material as well. And I do mean completely. The Atlanteans did not call this land Atlantis, either. The best I have been able to come up with is an english variant that means "land of atal crystals" or "Atalan."
As to the legitimacy of "Karmic Memory," it is an established scientific fact that "information is neither lost nor destroyed." I do not have the time here to explain what Karmic Memory is or where it comes from. However, I am picking up incredible levels of detail about Atlantis that goes far beyond "imagination." Or what might be determined as imagination. Something science has not been fully able to address. What imagination actually is. Yet all our ideas have emerged from this incredible ability of the human mind.
I am actually able to walk through spaces on "Atlantis" (and off of it) and describe many details as if I was actually there viewing them in situ. The descriptions of the "Temple of Dolon" are in such detail as to cause question if this is only pure fantasy. The "Temple of Dolon" was dedicated to what the Atlanteans referred to as their principle ocean deity (Since this culture was a sea-based one, it would seem most appropriate). And this temple could arguably be considered one of the most beautiful architectural wonders ever created by the hands of man. A multi-level structure than meandered from a high cliff down to a sea based port.
Sometimes, I get these "karmic" impressions in the waking state and often in the dream state. And I distinctly remember the dream state information, whereas, I normally do not remember my dreams.
According to these "Karmic impressions" there was a major Egyptian connection between the Atlanteans and the original people who resided in what my Karmic input says the Atlanteans called "Egis" of 12,000 years ago. There was also a very strong Moroccan connection with Atlantis as well. Morocco once held a major port created and controlled by Atlantis. "Marisan."
So you can understand why I do not wish to have contamination by other sources concerning this Karmic information. I do realize that many people will consider all of this to be the utterings of some "nutjob." And also expect numerous accusations of such from those who may not have a complete grasp of how this universe may actually be constructed. Or the imagination to accept this possibility. Something even Science is not completely aware of or may never be able to be completely aware of. That the universe is stranger than we imagine and even stranger than we can imagine.
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Old November 24th, 2012, 10:07 AM   #149

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The proof of Karmic Memory lies in the conviction of your own belief. Not everyone will believe it exists. But you don't need everyone to believe it for you to access it.

I accept your viewpoint, regardless of my unfamiliarity with it. If further discussion endangers your current project, then I await until its completion allows for future engagement.

Perhaps you'll share your discoveries on a new thread?
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Old November 25th, 2012, 02:17 AM   #150

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See how many similarities you can find from different and even older cultures. Names, places, events..... I have gone up to Genesis 8 and I already have dozens of examples including the tree, the garden, creation, rib, serpeant, flood, tower of babble, confusion of tongues, gods mating with women, ...etc. I look forwarding to discussing your results
Has anyone mentioned the Great Flood yet? I believe that is another very oft-appearing theme in many cultures.
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