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Old November 15th, 2012, 05:44 AM   #1

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The Brazilian Empire!


Suppose that following a successful Napoleon (no screwing over of Spain) Spain annexes Portugal.

The seat of power in the Empire remains in Brazil. Spain gets the Azores and Madeiras, but all other Portuguese colonies, along with Spanish Bioko, Rio Muni, and Annobon, and the Guyanas, go to Brazil.

Spain then very brutally tries to assimilate everyone in the peninsula, resulting in a mass emigration of nearly 2 million Galicians and Portuguese to Brazil.

In the final peace treaties, Brazil gets all of the Portuguese fleet (what remains anyway).

How well does the Brazilian Empire, controlling all of the colonies, do?

Geographically, Brazil is closer to Cape Verde, Sao Tome e Principe, Angola, and all the other Portuguese colonies than Portugal itself, so perhaps controlling the empire and expanding it is easier?
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Old November 15th, 2012, 06:31 AM   #2

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Suppose that following a successful Napoleon (no screwing over of Spain) Spain annexes Portugal.

The seat of power in the Empire remains in Brazil. Spain gets the Azores and Madeiras, but all other Portuguese colonies, along with Spanish Bioko, Rio Muni, and Annobon, and the Guyanas, go to Brazil.

Spain then very brutally tries to assimilate everyone in the peninsula, resulting in a mass emigration of nearly 2 million Galicians and Portuguese to Brazil.

In the final peace treaties, Brazil gets all of the Portuguese fleet (what remains anyway).

How well does the Brazilian Empire, controlling all of the colonies, do?

Geographically, Brazil is closer to Cape Verde, Sao Tome e Principe, Angola, and all the other Portuguese colonies than Portugal itself, so perhaps controlling the empire and expanding it is easier?
When the Portuguese royal family ruled from Brazil they realized it was much easier to rule from Brazil, than from Portugal ,
the geographic position helped much, but now come the problems,
with a migration of 2 million of europeans to Brazil,
the Empire would have much trouble with the both sides of the Empire (Brazilian Borns and European Imigrants), by that time the colony had developed to some extent its own identity, i must point that this really caused problems in the real live, like separatist moviments, one of the motives of Don.Pedro I abdicating the throne and leaving happened because he was Portuguese, a great number of revolts sparked in Brazil under his rule.
A Luso-brazilian empire just could expand after making a big number of social , economic and political reforms without that
I cant see the empire lasting much longer

Last edited by Tairusiano; November 15th, 2012 at 06:55 AM.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 07:05 AM   #3

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How well does the Brazilian Empire, controlling all of the colonies, do?
Now lets say in a internal stable scenario

I think with a Brazilian ruling Empire there would be a larger number of slaves (much more) maybe more cruel than the original Portuguese empire, to protect this colonies the fleet will be increased greatly, maybe a brazilian version of the Monroe Doctrine, with the Empire expading to the regions of River Plate, a war against Spain in this region our Argentina
would be inevitable, and even a war with the Bristish empire (this nearly happened in the real time)
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Old November 15th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #4

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Suppose that following a successful Napoleon (no screwing over of Spain) Spain annexes Portugal.

The seat of power in the Empire remains in Brazil. Spain gets the Azores and Madeiras, but all other Portuguese colonies, along with Spanish Bioko, Rio Muni, and Annobon, and the Guyanas, go to Brazil.

Spain then very brutally tries to assimilate everyone in the peninsula, resulting in a mass emigration of nearly 2 million Galicians and Portuguese to Brazil.

In the final peace treaties, Brazil gets all of the Portuguese fleet (what remains anyway).

How well does the Brazilian Empire, controlling all of the colonies, do?

Geographically, Brazil is closer to Cape Verde, Sao Tome e Principe, Angola, and all the other Portuguese colonies than Portugal itself, so perhaps controlling the empire and expanding it is easier?
I would prefer a version in which Portugal was also ruled from Brazil as a colony instead of this tragic end at the hands of the Spaniards.

The question here would be how much motivation would Brazil have to explore Africa, which after all was the only development after Brazil became independent in reality, since the Brazilian territory would be already large and full of natural resources. On the other hand Brazil was the colony more demanding of slaves so the transatlantic slave trade would last longer.
Unable to acomodate in Brazil, Africa would be the destination of the Portuguese diaspora.
The "shout of Ipiranga" would never happen.
One thing is for sure the Marquess of Pombal would never get a statue since Brazilians don't seem to like the man.

Last edited by Yḥānān; November 15th, 2012 at 08:47 AM.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 09:19 AM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ;1258078
I would prefer a version in which Portugal was also ruled from Brazil as a colony instead of this tragic end at the hands of the Spaniards.

The question here would be how much motivation would Brazil have to explore Africa, which after all was the only development after Brazil became independent in reality, since the Brazilian territory would be already large and full of natural resources. On the other hand Brazil was the colony more demanding of slaves so the transatlantic slave trade would last longer.
Unable to acomodate in Brazil, Africa would be the destination of the Portuguese diaspora.
The "shout of Ipiranga" would never happen.
One thing is for sure the Marquess of Pombal would never get a statue since Brazilians don't seem to like the man.
Marquess of Pombal is a interesting figure a example As the history had several versions, his administration was aimed to maximize the Profit for the metropolys, a Brazilian Historian spoke that Pombal "with his reforms made the Luso-Brazilians remember that they were still a colony", his administration not was popular but helped the formation of the actual Brazil.
he is an awesome example that in history things are not black or white
but grey (had good and evil)

and Yḥānān for peaceful future we can build a statue for him, Of course not so big
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Old November 15th, 2012, 10:25 AM   #6

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yḥānān View Post
I would prefer a version in which Portugal was also ruled from Brazil as a colony instead of this tragic end at the hands of the Spaniards.

The question here would be how much motivation would Brazil have to explore Africa, which after all was the only development after Brazil became independent in reality, since the Brazilian territory would be already large and full of natural resources. On the other hand Brazil was the colony more demanding of slaves so the transatlantic slave trade would last longer.
Unable to acomodate in Brazil, Africa would be the destination of the Portuguese diaspora.
The "shout of Ipiranga" would never happen.
One thing is for sure the Marquess of Pombal would never get a statue since Brazilians don't seem to like the man.
Depressing as it is, Portugal's end, it seems like no matter what Portugal in this scenario would lose any formal sovereignty, retaining only that of the titular variety, resulting in mass emigration and a severing of Portugal from the rest of the empire.

Would Angola (the highlands and around Luanda) receive large amounts of Portuguese and Galician (and later Irish and Lebanese) settlement?

With a more slave focused society, I could see Great Brazilian interest in Africa long term, considering once the slave trade goes away Brazil will still have had plenty of investment in Africa. Think Zanzibar, Dahomey, and Kongo (controlling the whole Congo) as a Brazilian dependencies/puppets/vassals. Maybe the Kingdom of Dahomey as a Brazilian puppet, the Pink Map being successful, and Guinea-Bissau controlling Casamance and Gambia, and Brazilian Gabon.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #7

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_...inebleau_(1807)
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Old November 15th, 2012, 10:41 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tairusiano View Post
Marquess of Pombal is a interesting figure a example As the history had several versions, his administration was aimed to maximize the Profit for the metropolys, a Brazilian Historian spoke that Pombal "with his reforms made the Luso-Brazilians remember that they were still a colony", his administration not was popular but helped the formation of the actual Brazil.
he is an awesome example that in history things are not black or white
but grey (had good and evil)
Is it my impression or his ati-Jesuite attitude is perceived differently there? Here it seems to be somewhat appreciated. There is a popular saying that goes: "Volta Marqus, eles j c andam outra vez!"/ "Come back Marquis they are walking around here again." which is an allusion to the expelling of the order.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tairusiano View Post
and Yḥānān for peaceful future we can build a statue for him, Of course not so big
We have a deal but you have to keep the lion.

Click the image to open in full size.

One thing that occured to me is that under this scenario when Europeans states got together to divide Africa Brazil would be sitting at the table.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 10:48 AM   #9

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Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Depressing as it is, Portugal's end, it seems like no matter what Portugal in this scenario would lose any formal sovereignty, retaining only that of the titular variety, resulting in mass emigration and a severing of Portugal from the rest of the empire.

Would Angola (the highlands and around Luanda) receive large amounts of Portuguese and Galician (and later Irish and Lebanese) settlement?

With a more slave focused society, I could see Great Brazilian interest in Africa long term, considering once the slave trade goes away Brazil will still have had plenty of investment in Africa. Think Zanzibar, Dahomey, and Kongo (controlling the whole Congo) as a Brazilian dependencies/puppets/vassals. Maybe the Kingdom of Dahomey as a Brazilian puppet, the Pink Map being successful, and Guinea-Bissau controlling Casamance and Gambia, and Brazilian Gabon.
Yes, the pink map crossed my mind, I imagine Brazil would have more capacity, not to say courage, to resist the British Ultimatum.
If Brazil had the drive, which would mean the need, it may have conditions to secure more African territories.
The thing that always drove Portugal was being small and lacking natural resources, and also lacking the hability to establish other ways of development like manufacturing. So it turned more to trade, not always the best form of trade like the commerce of slaves, Brazil on the other way didn't lack so many things.
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Old November 15th, 2012, 11:17 AM   #10

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Friendly neighborhood.
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