Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Speculative History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Speculative History Speculative History Forum - Alternate History, What If Questions, Pseudo History, and anything outside the boundaries of mainstream historical research

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 16th, 2012, 05:26 AM   #1

Naomasa298's Avatar
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 30,540
The Trojan War took place in... England

Contrary to common belief, Troy wasn't in what is now Turkey, and it wasn't attacked by Greeks. No, in fact, Troy was in East Anglia.

Troy and the Trojan Wars

One for those of you who enjoy whacked out theories. I can imagine the reaction of some previous members of Historum to this.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Remove Ads
Old November 16th, 2012, 05:32 AM   #2

bartieboy's Avatar
Joined: Dec 2010
From: The Netherlands
Posts: 6,616
Blog Entries: 5

Ah, so the truces that were made were actually just tea times?
bartieboy is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 05:33 AM   #3

Clemmie's Avatar
Ye olde librarian
Joined: Oct 2010
From: Florida
Posts: 3,629

Moreover, since the customs described in the Iliad are typically Celtic, and since Troy's enemies, alternatively called Achaeans, Argives or Danaans, were definitely not ‘Greeks' (as they are unfortunately called in some translations), the search of Troy should focus on regions in western Europeformerly inhabited by Celts
As their Greek name ‘pelasgoi' indicates2, the Pelasgians must have been the mysterious ‘Sea Peoples' who were the terror of the Mediterranean during the second millenium BC. According to the Egyptians they came from the Great Green Sea and visited their country on an embassy in 1341 BC, followed by several attacks in the 13th century. Although the Sea Peoples operated from bases in the Mediterranean, it turns out that they originated from various coastal regions in Western Europe, one of which fits all of Homer's descriptions of Troy and the Troad

I guess we need to start rewriting history!
Clemmie is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 05:38 AM   #4

Naomasa298's Avatar
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 30,540

Ah, I know - the Danaans were actually the Tuatha de Danaan, so they were actually Irish!
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 06:35 AM   #5

davu's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Retired - This Mountain isn't on a Map
Posts: 4,068

the ancient scholar Strabo agrees that the ports of call recorded in the Odyssey (ancient sailors guide) should be found in the Atlantic because of the oceans and tides that do not exist in the Mediterranean
if Strabo really wrote this --- i wonder why other then the "tides" -- hummmmm -- why would he say this ?????

maybe he was on drugs or something, you know, fantasticing to make a good story so "historians" in the "future" would find something to do ---

i thought Strabo was a really really no mess around kind of guy -- -- he was into writing fairy tales or adding embellishments like homer was??????

seems to me that we're questioning the very historians that we trust to have writen accurate histories and their observations and recording of history are now being questioned as "figments of imagination" -- why can't we just take what they wrote about as "fact" and go from there.
davu is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 06:37 AM   #6

Naomasa298's Avatar
Joined: Apr 2010
From: T'Republic of Yorkshire
Posts: 30,540

Maybe aliens made him do it.
Naomasa298 is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 06:47 AM   #7

davu's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Retired - This Mountain isn't on a Map
Posts: 4,068

strabo was an "alien" agent --- lets not let van daniken get another toe hold here ---
davu is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 06:50 AM   #8

funakison's Avatar
Joined: Oct 2012
From: Between a rock and a hard place
Posts: 5,312
Blog Entries: 1

At least it was in Cambrideshire, im happy to accept that. For one horrible moment when you mentioned East Anglia i thought Priam and Hector were Essex boys.
funakison is offline  
Old November 16th, 2012, 07:19 AM   #9

davu's Avatar
Joined: Jun 2010
From: Retired - This Mountain isn't on a Map
Posts: 4,068

A very large number of Trojan War period bronze weapons have been found near Cambridge and date to 1200 BC (the time of Troy and the Trojan wars.

Homer details two large war dykes, none have been found in the Mediterranean setting, but two still exist near Cambridge

Click the image to open in full size.

who found these, where did they find them, who documented them, and what museum are they in, have they been dated using "modern" equipment --- just a start on questions

see below for an example


Our capabilities include chemical analysis, mechanical testing, metallurgical analysis, and specialized testing and services such as expert witness testimony and consulting, failure analysis, reverse engineering, fastener testing, aviation services, scanning electron microscopy, welder qualification, warranty issues, materials and process problem solving, turbine engine component testing, electronic device testing, and miscellaneous tests on non-metallic materials.
i would think it would take these guys about 2 days to figure this one out ---

another question would be - "what is the metallic analysis of the metal" and "what was the smelting process that was used". engineers these days can figure all this out. the real question is "are you going to like what they find".
davu is offline  
Old November 24th, 2012, 05:32 AM   #10
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2

I get this indication of changes in culture over time from "Rise of the Greek Epic, copyright 1911 by Gilbert Murray, based on a series of lectures he gave at Harvard. I read the book in my local library, but I see it's online as a google book:

The rise of the Greek epic: being a course of lectures delivered at Harvard ... - Gilbert Murray - Google Books

Changes in houses. Originally, houses were one room halls. In the evening, guests were sent outside to sleep on the pourch so
the householder and his wife could have a little privacy. That's where Telemachus stays when he visits Nestor and Menelaos, (Od book 3, lines 395-406, and book 4 lines 296 to 307. and where Odysseus stays when he's a guest of Alcinous( Od book 7, lines 228-347). In the Illiad, when Hector visits Paris in
his home, (Il book 6, lines 321 ff), he finds Paris cleaning his armor, and Helen and her maids spinning, all in the one room hall. In the story of Ares' adultery with Hephaistos' wife, Aphrodite, (Od book 8,lines 304-325), Hephaistos catches the adulterers in a trap, and the other gods seem them trapped in bed in a web from the doorway outside the house.

In the Illiad, book 24, lines 643-650, the poet is not aware of this universal custom, and gives feeble excuses for Achilles (rudely, in the poet's view) making Priam sleep on the pourch. Also, not aware of the custom, in book 4 of the Odyssey, Helen and Menelaos go to sleep in the hall, yet in the morning Helen comes out of her "fragrant, high-roofed bower". Penelope slept in "upper chambers". Classical Greeks pictured many roomed palaces rather than the one room halls of the "Heroic" period.

Changes in worship. In the original story, altars were in the open air. (Il 1, 446, Il 2,line 305, Il 8, 238ff, Od 6, 162)
In book IL 1, line 39, and in Il book 6 there are descriptions of indoor temples- which the classical Greeks had but the original Homeric characters did not.

Changes in armor. The Athenians pictured warriors fighting in phalanx formation, with Iron swords and spears, with bronze breastplates, bronze helmets, and bronze greaves. The original "Heroic" characters had bronze swords, but leather helmets and chest protectors, and had oxhide shields or used the skins of animals. In Il 4, 448, Il Il 7, 62, Il 20, 156.

The combatants are described as fighting in phalanx formation, as the Athenians did at Marathon. Il 3, 1-9, Il 4, 427-432. In Il 13, 801 the Trojans are also supposedly fighting in phalanx formation.

Once they meet, it's not phalanx against phalanx, but 1 on 1 hero against hero. Il 3, 358, Il 7,252, speak of spears piercing the corselet, but the hero is able to dodge the spear, avoiding death. In the original "heroic" age it would be possible to dodge a spear piercing your oxhide shield or wolfskin, but there's no way in hell someone's going to dodge a spear which has already pierced his corselet. Note that in IL book 10, and in the Odyssey, there's no mention of breastplate and shield The "heroic age" characters didn't have them. Dolon in Il 10 had a wolfskin. I don't think that was to keep warm at night I think it was to be used as a shield, much as the Scots used their " great kilts."

Changes in customs: Gilbert Murray refers to J.A. K. Thompson from St Andrews, England, who pointed out that the "Heroic Age" combatants were headhunters.
They threaten to cut of each other's heads, ( Il 17,39, Il 17 125 ff, Il 18, 177, Il 18, 334-336, Il 22, 348)
and sometimes they actuall do so (Il 13, 202 ff, Il 10, 455-459, Il 11, 145ff )

In Il 23, 24 Achilles performed "shameful deeds" on Hector. J.A. K. Thompson figures that Achilles cut off Hector's head. The later poets edited out this crude practice, as they edited out direct references to Agamemnon's sacrifice of his daughter prior to the expedition.

And also there were significant changes in burial customs: from this online article on "Archaeology of the Iliad"


"In one essential point the poet describes a custom without parallel among the discovered relics of the Mycenaean age--namely, the disposal of the bodies of the dead. They are neither buried with their arms, in stately tholos tombs nor in shaft graves, as at Mycenae: whether they be princes or simple oarsmen, they are cremated. A pyre of wood is built; on this the warrior's body is laid, the pyre is lighted, the body is reduced to ashes, the ashes are placed in a vessel or box of gold, wrapped round with precious cloths (no arms are buried, as a general rule), and a mound, howe, barrow, or tumulus is raised over all. Usually a stele or pillar crowns the edifice. This method is almost uniform, and, as far as cremation and the cairn go, is universal in the Iliad and Odyssey whenever a burial is described. Now this mode of interment must be the mode of a single age in Greek civilisation. It is confessedly not the method of the Mycenaeans of the shaft grave, or of the latter tholos or stone beehive-shaped grave; again, the Mycenaeans did not burn the dead; they buried. Once more, the Homeric method is not that of the Dipylon period (say 900-750 B.C.) represented by the tombs outside the Dipylon gate of Athens. The people of that age now buried, now burned, their dead, and did not build cairns over them. Thus the Homeric custom matches neither the shaft graves and the latter tholos graves, on the one hand, and the Dipylon custom of burning or burying, with sunk or rock-hewn graves, on the other.

The Homeric poets describe the method of their own period. They assuredly do not adhere to an older epic tradition of shaft graves or tholos graves, though these must have been described in lays of the period when such methods of disposal of the dead were in vogue. The altar above the shaft-graves in Mycenae proves the cult of ancestors in Mycenae; of this cult in the Iliad there is no trace, or only a dim trace of survival in the slaughter of animals at the funeral. The Homeric way of thinking about the state of the dead, weak, shadowy things beyond the river Oceanus, did not permit them to be worshipped as potent beings. Only in a passage, possibly interpolated, of the Odyssey, do we hear that Castor and Polydeuces, brothers of Helen, and sons of Tyndareus, through the favour of Zeus have immortality, and receive divine honours. [Footnote: Odyssey, XI. 298-304.]

The cause of the marked change from Mycenaean inhumation to Homeric cremation is matter of conjecture. It has been suggested that burning was introduced during the migrations after the Dorian invasion. Men could carry the ashes of their friends to the place where they finally settled. [Footnote: Helbig, Homerische Epos, p.83] The question may, perhaps, be elucidated by excavation, especially in Asia Minor, on the sites of the earliest Greek colonies. At Colophon are many cairns unexplored by science. Mr. Ridgeway, as is well known, attributes the introduction of cremation to a conquering northern people, the Achaeans, his "Celts." It is certain that cremation and urn burial of the ashes prevailed in Britain during the Age of Bronze, and co-existed with inhumation in the great cemetery of Hallstatt, surviving into the Age of Iron. [Footnote: Cf. Guide to Antiquities of Early Iron Age, British Museum, 1905, by Mr. Reginald A. Smith, under direction of Mr. Charles H. Read, for a brief account of Hallstatt culture.] Others suppose a change in Achaean ideas about the soul; it was no longer believed to haunt the grave and grave goods and be capable of haunting the living, but to be wholly set free by burning, and to depart for ever to the House of Hades, powerless and incapable of hauntings."

So in summing up, the original houses do not match Mycenaean houses or Classical Hellenic houses, but houses from Homer's "dark age"
Burial customs did not match Mycenean customs or Classical Hellenic customs, but customs in Homers "dark ages".
The headhunting practice did not match Mycenean practice or Hellenic practice, but a Homeric "dark ages" practice.
The characters in the Iliad use chariots in warfare. The classical Hellenes did not use chariots in warfare.

Notice that the houses, burial customs, head hunting, and use of chariots in warfare all match the customs of the urnfield people of northern Europe between 1200 and 700 BC. , not the customs of the classical Hellenes. I think Iman Wilkens was correct that the Iliad originated from a celtic story.
Alan McIntire is offline  

  Historum > Themes in History > Speculative History

england, place, trojan, war

Search tags for this page
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trojan War: Who got what they deserved? okamido Ancient History 17 February 2nd, 2012 02:05 PM
About Trojan people kgnju European History 10 July 10th, 2011 01:01 AM
The Trojan War, a new history Clemmie History Book Reviews 7 March 8th, 2011 07:25 AM
The Trojan War Salah Ancient History 156 February 24th, 2011 09:38 PM
The Trojan Horse Sargon of Akkad Ancient History 25 December 12th, 2009 10:03 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.