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Old November 18th, 2012, 05:08 PM   #41

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Regardless of the actual possiblity of a Japanese forcce being able to land and conduct operations on the US mainland, had such a thing occurred, the civilian population would have been as docile and helpless as any other that has suffered invasion. There would have been individual acts of resistance but in the main the people would have simply kept their heads down and tried to get on with life. A resistance would have appered eventually, but these things take time to organise. The idea of citizens behind every tree spontaneously taking on an invading army with shotguns and hunting rifles is a fantasy.
That's funny, because that "behind every tree (or blade of grass)" saying came from the Japanese command at that time. Also, I don't know how it is where you are from, but here where I am from, most of us are gun owners and use them on a regular basis. I would not hesitate, not even for a second, to use them to defend my family...so you must be speaking for yourself and your country here. Would most Americans fight? Probably not. Would enough Americans fight to make a difference, especially considering the technology of WWII? More than likely.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 05:58 PM   #42
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Let's not let nationalism and patriotism get in the way of reality

Same thing would have happened if the Germans had taken London tbh, when someone has a machine gun pointing at your family you tend to weigh the consequences.

Fortunately something as awful as a Japanese invasion of the US or Australia never happened, but if a division or so were sent on a one way mission to create havoc I wonder how far they'd get? The USA wasn't mobilised in 1941, what would have happened if some troop transports landed on a remote beach in California at the same time as the attack on Pearl Harbour?
It is not nationalism and patriotism. The country is huge. Invading the US would be very difficult. Probably more difficult than invading Russia.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 06:43 PM   #43
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Perhaps in the modern day, but how urbanised was California in 1941? How many city people had guns and how much of an effect would an average farmstead have on a division with machine guns, rifles and tanks etc? The Japanese would likely have just shot everyone on sight if the civ population fought back.
Japan did not have the capacity to invade California. If they did the end result would have been a lot of dead Japanese soldiers. Their lines of supply would have been precarious. Plus they would have been dealing with the US military which had an inexhaustible supply of troops and material. Finally the terrain of California would not be conducive to such an event. At worst they would have been held in the mountains until massive reinforcements arrived, then it would have been Dunkirk but thousands of miles from home.

Interestingly, would the casualties they took have hastened the war?
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Old November 18th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #44

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So we've possibly mis-read the OP or mis-understood the purpose of same?

Even if you adjust it to being a suicide/behind the enemy lines sabotage/scare the bejesus out of the public type exercise it's still a monumental waste with no worthwhile objective.

1 or 2 divisions and all their equipment and support, the ships necessary to carry, oil and protect this force on it's way to California.
It probably would have been sunk on it's way there.
It's not like Japan had a division or two and everything else described to spare on a mission like this with no tangible outcome, other than eventually losing said equipment and personell.

What were the heavy manufacturing facilities in Cali at that time? That would at least be a clear objective.
Sending a raiding force ahead of a larger invasion would make some sense also.

The whole thing just seems like a huge effort for no clear result.
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Old November 18th, 2012, 11:57 PM   #45

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Originally Posted by Earl_of_Rochester View Post
Let's not let nationalism and patriotism get in the way of reality

Same thing would have happened if the Germans had taken London tbh, when someone has a machine gun pointing at your family you tend to weigh the consequences.

Fortunately something as awful as a Japanese invasion of the US or Australia never happened, but if a division or so were sent on a one way mission to create havoc I wonder how far they'd get? The USA wasn't mobilised in 1941, what would have happened if some troop transports landed on a remote beach in California at the same time as the attack on Pearl Harbour?
Then again, the British were in fact organizing their civilian resistance in 1940. the Home guard would have been able to do more damage than people who got straight out of their beds.

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That's funny, because that "behind every tree (or blade of grass)" saying came from the Japanese command at that time. Also, I don't know how it is where you are from, but here where I am from, most of us are gun owners and use them on a regular basis. I would not hesitate, not even for a second, to use them to defend my family...so you must be speaking for yourself and your country here. Would most Americans fight? Probably not. Would enough Americans fight to make a difference, especially considering the technology of WWII? More than likely.
That says nothing at all...
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Old November 19th, 2012, 01:09 AM   #46

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Then again, the British were in fact organizing their civilian resistance in 1940. the Home guard would have been able to do more damage than people who got straight out of their beds.



That says nothing at all...
I don't think you and I are reading the same thing because I understand him perfectly. What he is speaking of for Indiana also applies to most of the states I have traveled to. Any Japanese invasion would have been met with resistance from the locals and it would have continued until the Japanese were forced back into the sea.

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Old November 19th, 2012, 03:54 AM   #47

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Originally Posted by Belgarion View Post
Regardless of the actual possiblity of a Japanese forcce being able to land and conduct operations on the US mainland, had such a thing occurred, the civilian population would have been as docile and helpless as any other that has suffered invasion. There would have been individual acts of resistance but in the main the people would have simply kept their heads down and tried to get on with life. A resistance would have appered eventually, but these things take time to organise. The idea of citizens behind every tree spontaneously taking on an invading army with shotguns and hunting rifles is a fantasy.
You don't know Americans very well. We have a small but significant minority who would bear arms against our own government and military. And the only thing they hate more than their own government interfering in their lives is an alien government doing so. Ever hear of Waco? Ruby Ridge? Oklahoma City?
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:40 AM   #48

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Originally Posted by Wenge View Post
I don't think you and I are reading the same thing because I understand him perfectly. What he is speaking of for Indiana also applies to most of the states I have traveled to. Any Japanese invasion would have been met with resistance from the locals and it would have continued until the Japanese were forced back into the sea.

WOLVERINES!
luckily hollywood movies like red dawn are not an accurate portrayal of warfare...
in the words of Winston Churchill
It is amazing how fast a trained army can crush unorganized resistance.

I don't know why Americans have the idea that they would offer more resistance to an invading army than for example the Polish, Russians or Norwegians.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:47 AM   #49

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luckily hollywood movies like red dawn are not an accurate portrayal of warfare...
in the words of Winston Churchill
It is amazing how fast a trained army can crush unorganized resistance.

I don't know why Americans have the idea that they would offer more resistance to an invading army than for example the Polish, Russians or Norwegians.
Because that rag tap group of freedom fighters defeated the most powerful army in the world to win their Independence. Also, because they could.
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Old November 19th, 2012, 04:54 AM   #50

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A Kamikaze division size force of armour/mechanised infantry landing relatively unopposed and then using the excellent US road system to move rapidly, capturing food and fuel on the way could cause a lot of mayhem, but probably relatively little serious physical damage. I think the fear and panic such a force created would be out of all proportion to any actual damage they could inflict.


That's my point too, people keep mentioning logistics and supplies. Logistics and supplies for what? All the food/munitions/roads are already there. Napoleon was able to reduce Italy and Europe with little in the way of supplies and with a small force you could easily just commandeer the supplies and food of local civilians. Starvation isn't a likely prospect, the only thing a small invasion force would have to worry about is attack from the air or being detected upon landing. In the meantime they could just roll around the countryside destroying everything until inevitably being wiped out, but if they'd have been able to get to Los Angeles or San Fransisco they'd have been able to do a lot of damage to the ports, railways and infrastructure imho. It's odd that it was never attempted when the IJA were so devoted to personal sacrifice. The final Yammamoto attack was the real waste of men.
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