Historum - History Forums  

Go Back   Historum - History Forums > Themes in History > Speculative History
Register Forums Blogs Social Groups Mark Forums Read

Speculative History Speculative History Forum - Alternate History, What If Questions, Pseudo History, and anything outside the boundaries of mainstream historical research


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old November 21st, 2012, 12:02 PM   #11

Ancientgeezer's Avatar
Revisionist
 
Joined: Nov 2011
From: The Dustbin, formerly, Garden of England
Posts: 7,267

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Would this be the Kingdom of France (Action Francaise) or the Commune of France?
The Croix-de-Feu and Mouvement Franciste combined into the Parti Franciste.
Ancientgeezer is online now  
Remove Ads
Old November 21st, 2012, 12:05 PM   #12

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 14,652
Blog Entries: 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
The Croix-de-Feu and Mouvement Franciste combined into the Parti Franciste.
Yes, you're right to remind it. The Croix-de-Feu was among the main actors, sure it would have taken part to an eventual extremist government of a defeated France.
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old November 21st, 2012, 12:46 PM   #13
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Netanya, Israel
Posts: 57

lol if the cp had won, israel would have been established in time and no holocaust would have happened.
Presumably.
Alexander Jannaeus is offline  
Old November 21st, 2012, 01:02 PM   #14

AlpinLuke's Avatar
Knight-errant
 
Joined: Oct 2011
From: Lago Maggiore, Italy
Posts: 14,652
Blog Entries: 18

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexander Jannaeus View Post
lol if the cp had won, israel would have been established in time and no holocaust would have happened.
Presumably.
Eh, not that simple. The chemistry between Ottoman and British power in ME in those decades was complicated.

The defeat of UK in WW I may be would have allowed the Ottomans to keep their power in the region. Ottomans weren't so ready to concede a state to the Jews [the British power seemed to be more ready for this].

So, I wouldn't be that sure ...
AlpinLuke is offline  
Old November 22nd, 2012, 02:09 AM   #15
Suspended indefinitely
 
Joined: Nov 2012
From: Netanya, Israel
Posts: 57

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpinLuke View Post
Eh, not that simple. The chemistry between Ottoman and British power in ME in those decades was complicated.

The defeat of UK in WW I may be would have allowed the Ottomans to keep their power in the region. Ottomans weren't so ready to concede a state to the Jews [the British power seemed to be more ready for this].

So, I wouldn't be that sure ...
So still, there would probably be no holocaust. Unless france turned nazi in defence of the "holy french race". Though like some other user said, if the white army had won in russia it would initiate something resmebling the holocaust.
Alexander Jannaeus is offline  
Old November 22nd, 2012, 04:07 AM   #16

Belisarius's Avatar
Dominus Historiae
 
Joined: Jun 2006
From: U.K.
Posts: 10,123

Apart from the odd pogrom, the Tsarists would have more likely deported jewish "undesirables" into internal exile "beyond the Urals." Russia had ample opportunities to exterminate her jewish subjects in the 19th century but didn't, so a Russian "holocaust" wuld have been unlikely. If France had gone "fascist" the worst case scenario would have been deportation to French colonies, rather than extermination. Even the nazis first choice was expulsion before WW2.

Zionism was considered a crackpot scheme by most jewish Europeans at the time, so most would emigrate to America, given the circumstances and opportunity.
Belisarius is offline  
Old December 14th, 2015, 10:36 AM   #17
Suspended until December 30th, 2016
 
Joined: May 2014
From: SoCal
Posts: 10,816
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
What happens to Jews and Zionism in the world of a Central Powers victory?
Some Jewish immigration into Palestine continues. However, it might be possible that the Ottomans will eventually decide to reduce Jewish immigration into Palestine if Zionist sentiments among the Jews in Palestine will become too strong and/or if there will be too much Jewish-Arab tensions in Palestine. (Indeed, some Jewish-Arab tensions in Palestine might benefit the Ottomans since the Ottomans could try playing off both sides against each other; however, too much Jewish-Arab tensions in Palestine might mean that the Ottomans might need to serve as a police force in Palestine, something which the Ottomans might not want to do due to the fact that this will be a waste of troops and resources which can better be used elsewhere.)

Quote:
Historically, when WW1 broke out, Jews sided with their respective countries, even in Russia. When the Russians started their deportations of Jews, Jews in the east began to look favorably upon the idea of a German victory.
Yes; correct!

Quote:
Jewish international organizations largely were neutral, but in favor of Germany, with small pro-British minorities in the organizations including Zionist ones.
Source, please?

Quote:
The British approached the small minorities with the proposal for a state in the Palestine region, which led to the shift towards a pro-British attitude.
OK.

Quote:
Meanwhile, in a CP victory, the Whites would likely win in Russia, considering that the Germans would put considerable effort into preventing communists on their eastern flank. Considering White anti-semitism, this could lead to a mass emigration west.
Agreed. Of course, the interesting question would be whether countries such as the U.S. would still pass large-scale immigration restrictions in this scenario. Indeed, any thoughts on this?
Futurist is offline  
Old December 14th, 2015, 10:37 AM   #18
Suspended until December 30th, 2016
 
Joined: May 2014
From: SoCal
Posts: 10,816
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
Apart from the odd pogrom, the Tsarists would have more likely deported jewish "undesirables" into internal exile "beyond the Urals." Russia had ample opportunities to exterminate her jewish subjects in the 19th century but didn't, so a Russian "holocaust" wuld have been unlikely. If France had gone "fascist" the worst case scenario would have been deportation to French colonies, rather than extermination. Even the nazis first choice was expulsion before WW2.

Zionism was considered a crackpot scheme by most jewish Europeans at the time, so most would emigrate to America, given the circumstances and opportunity.
Would they have actually permanently been given the opportunity to immigrate to America, though?
Futurist is offline  
Old December 14th, 2015, 10:41 AM   #19
Suspended until December 30th, 2016
 
Joined: May 2014
From: SoCal
Posts: 10,816
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ancientgeezer View Post
A CP victory would have probably meant that Zionism would have remained a quirky backward-looking movement of eccentrics. However a White victory in Russia would surely have produced the mother-of-all-pogroms against the Jews, especially amongst the non-religious Jews associated with the Bolshviks and left SRs.
Agreed, unfortunately.

Quote:
Palestine, presumably would remain in Turkish hands, so where would they go? The Americans didn't want them, neither did anyone else.
If the U.S. still eventually implements large-scale immigration restrictions in this scenario, then what about having these Jews immigrate to Canada, Australia, Britain, France, the Low Countries, Argentina, Brazil, Chile, et cetera? After all, Jews who would want to immigrate in this scenario might be willing to go wherever they are accepted and might be willing to wait for a while before they can emigrate. After all, unlike in Nazi Germany, the Jews in this scenario are (thankfully) not going to be murdered if they don't emigrate in time.

Quote:
Maybe the Ugandan offer would have been taken up instead.
Was the interior of Africa hospitable to millions of White people in the early 20th century, though? Completely serious question, for the record.
Futurist is offline  
Old December 14th, 2015, 10:44 AM   #20
Suspended until December 30th, 2016
 
Joined: May 2014
From: SoCal
Posts: 10,816
Blog Entries: 3

Quote:
Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Perhaps a mass Jewish emigration to Germany and (if it survives) Austria-Hungary?
Would German nationalists have actually been willing to tolerate a massive immigration of Eastern Jews to Germany, though? Indeed, couldn't such immigration result in much more anti-Semitism in Germany and in much more support for immigration restrictions to Germany?

Quote:
Would the Ottoman empire have even survived? Its one thing for the Germans to win following a defeat of Russia. Its another for the Turks to survive when the British and French were already in control of most of non-Anatolian Turkey.
A rump Ottoman Empire based in Turkey/Anatolia can survive in the event of a Central Powers victory in World War I.
Futurist is offline  
Reply

  Historum > Themes in History > Speculative History

Tags
central, jews, powers, victory, zionism



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
WW1 USA joins Central powers JHicks Speculative History 31 October 20th, 2014 07:12 AM
Would you had stmpathy for the Central Powers at the start of WWI? Foxy European History 49 September 7th, 2010 09:58 AM
WW1 Britain joins the Central Powers Nick Speculative History 6 February 4th, 2010 06:39 PM

Copyright © 2006-2013 Historum. All rights reserved.