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Old December 12th, 2012, 08:41 AM   #71

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To highlight another bit of this fakery, let's take the sarcaophagus of Pakal that was previously mentioned:
Click the image to open in full size.

First let's examine the reasoning behind the AAT believers by highlighting exactly why it is they believe this is a representation of a Maya or alien astronaut. There's what a few people seem to interpret as smoke at the bottom, like a rocket launch. Then there's the fact that the figure in the middle, Pakal, is in a fetal position, like the astronauts in Project Mercury or some famous early photographs of them performing extra-vehicular activities. This goes to show the influence of pop-culture on their beliefs. Is the fetal position a fundamental posture of astronauts doing EVA? No, there is plenty of photographic evidence of that. The infamous Erik von Daniken further claims that Pakal has a nose mask, his feet are on pedals, and he is operating controls with his hands. There are no further claims I'm aware of. Now let's examine these graspings one by one, shall we? I've already mentioned how bizarre it is to claim the fetal position fundamentally represents astronauts. Alien technology or no, there is no scientific reason to believe a nose mask constitutes actual, useful gear for space activity. The mouth is left uncovered along with the rest of the skin and eyes, besides the alleged nose mask Pakal is wearing nothing but a skirt, jewelry, and presumably a loincloth. This is not suitable space-wear, alien technology is not magic. And if one were to actually look at the image it is patently clear his hands are grasping nothing and has but one foot over (not necessarily touching) the object covering much of the bottom. So in addition to being scientifically unsound this explanation is also extremely faulty from an artistic perspective.

Now, onto what this really represents. What it actually represents is Pakal's rebirth in the afterlife. The Maya represented people being reborn as being in a fetal position, as you can see here. The cross-like figure is the World Tree, and standing atop it is the Celestial Bird, thought to be an avatar of Itzamna, the creator. To be specific it looks like a fanciful quetzal, a very important bird to the Maya, and one of definitely terrestrial origins. On the tree there are many glyphs and what appears to be a two-headed serpent, possibly yet another abstract rendition of the Vision Serpent of Maya myth so often represented in Maya art, especially courtly art as befitting a king of a wealthy kingdom. And below Pakal you can see the centipedal jaws representing the underworld. Centipedes are quite bony looking and obviously very creepy, so it's easy to understand how they had somewhat demonic connotations even if they weren't necessarily malicious and evil. The teeth at the very bottom are clear to see but while not biologically very realistic, very little in Maya art is and it's purposefully quite abstract most of the time. The pincers however are clear to see and definitely give away the creature's nature. All these things are often represented in Maya myth and art. The only thing that's a mystery is why the contemporary mythology of the native peoples is seen as a less satisfactory answer by AAS's ilk than modern references to a particular subculture, Ufologists.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 08:48 AM   #72

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I am absolutely loving this debunk-athon. Keep up the good work, chaps!
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #73

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
To highlight another bit of this fakery, let's take the sarcaophagus of Pakal that was previously mentioned:
Click the image to open in full size.

First let's examine the reasoning behind the AAT believers by highlighting exactly why it is they believe this is a representation of a Maya or alien astronaut. There's what a few people seem to interpret as smoke at the bottom, like a rocket launch. Then there's the fact that the figure in the middle, Pakal, is in a fetal position, like the astronauts in Project Mercury or some famous early photographs of them performing extra-vehicular activities. This goes to show the influence of pop-culture on their beliefs. Is the fetal position a fundamental posture of astronauts doing EVA? No, there is plenty of photographic evidence of that. The infamous Erik von Daniken further claims that Pakal has a nose mask, his feet are on pedals, and he is operating controls with his hands. There are no further claims I'm aware of. Now let's examine these graspings one by one, shall we? I've already mentioned how bizarre it is to claim the fetal position fundamentally represents astronauts. Alien technology or no, there is no scientific reason to believe a nose mask constitutes actual, useful gear for space activity. The mouth is left uncovered along with the rest of the skin and eyes, besides the alleged nose mask Pakal is wearing nothing but a skirt, jewelry, and presumably a loincloth. This is not suitable space-wear, alien technology is not magic. And if one were to actually look at the image it is patently clear his hands are grasping nothing and has but one foot over (not necessarily touching) the object covering much of the bottom. So in addition to being scientifically unsound this explanation is also extremely faulty from an artistic perspective.

Now, onto what this really represents. What it actually represents is Pakal's rebirth in the afterlife. The Maya represented people being reborn as being in a fetal position, as you can see here. The cross-like figure is the World Tree, and standing atop it is the Celestial Bird, thought to be an avatar of Itzamna, the creator. To be specific it looks like a fanciful quetzal, a very important bird to the Maya, and one of definitely terrestrial origins. On the tree there are many glyphs and what appears to be a two-headed serpent, possibly yet another abstract rendition of the Vision Serpent of Maya myth so often represented in Maya art, especially courtly art as befitting a king of a wealthy kingdom. And below Pakal you can see the centipedal jaws representing the underworld. Centipedes are quite bony looking and obviously very creepy, so it's easy to understand how they had somewhat demonic connotations even if they weren't necessarily malicious and evil. The teeth at the very bottom are clear to see but while not biologically very realistic, very little in Maya art is and it's purposefully quite abstract most of the time. The pincers however are clear to see and definitely give away the creature's nature. All these things are often represented in Maya myth and art. The only thing that's a mystery is why the contemporary mythology of the native peoples is seen as a less satisfactory answer by AAS's ilk than modern references to a particular subculture, Ufologists.
Really interesting, cheers.

I do think that if the ancients saw real rockets and space ships, aliens etc that there with be no shadow of a doubt that the art made such claims. These were people that could create fantasic art to mimic both humans and animals, so why would they create images of space ships and aliens so abstract? If the alien theory was true, we would see without a doubt that this was implied in their art - but it isn't. It is just the same as looking at a cloud formation and seeing a shape, or the face of Jesus on some burnt toast. I don't believe in ancient aliens because a circle or a person pointing to the sun on an ancient carving is not evidence. Show me a proven ancient carving of a modern technological vehicle or device and I may believe.

Last edited by Brisieis; December 12th, 2012 at 09:44 AM.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:20 AM   #74

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Quote:
"The London Hammer",
strike #1 - .....Lacking any rigorous geologic evidence for their claims.....

strike #2 - .....In the Bible-Science Newsletter, Walter Lang (1983).....

strike #3 - .....If four years have gone by and nothing has happened......

The London Hammer: An Alleged Out of Place Artifact

the only thing right here is that its in the "speculation" section ---

i will get to the "lightbulbs" sometime but for starters --- could someone explain to me how the ancients provided light into these rooms for the workmen to perform their work -- they had to be in there for hours on end sweating and stinky beyond belief with no lunches, etc., worshiping some jackass pharoh --- and since no one has positively beyond all question without exception, found any charcoal residual from torches (something about lack of oxygen which the torchs would use up anyway and all the worker bees and a superintendent (4 if it was a gov't contract) would all die of asphyxiation). maybe the egyptians had invented air tanks using goat blatters ---

definition - condition of severely deficient supply of
Oxygen Oxygen
to the
Body Body
that arises from being unable to
Breathing Breathing
normally

until someone comes up with a lighting technique and/or an oxgyen solution --- the lightbulb is as good as any -- --- tooo bad they didn't leave an operations and engineering manuel - sure would have made the lives of our "historians" a whole lot easier -- it would have cut out a lot of main cow excrement -
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:32 AM   #75

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Quote:
Originally Posted by davu;1285137
i will get to the "lightbulbs" sometime but for starters --- could someone explain to me how the ancients provided light into these rooms for the workmen to perform their work -- they had to be in there for hours on end sweating and stinky beyond belief with no lunches, etc., worshiping some jackass pharoh --- and since no one has positively beyond all question without exception, found any charcoal residual from torches (something about lack of oxygen which the torchs would use up anyway and all the worker bees and a superintendent (4 if it was a gov't contract) would all die of [B
asphyxiation[/B]). maybe the egyptians had invented air tanks using goat blatters ---
http://www.digonsite.com/drdig/egypt/107.html
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:41 AM   #76

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Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
Oh snap, I believe the correct response is. Davu would benefit greatly from sourcing his claims better and using more logic to form them, I should think. Claiming an object in a mural looks vaguely like a modern lightbulb and therefore aliens despite there being no evidence for glass, tungsten, and electricity at the time strikes me as a little more farfetched than the idea that somebody missed a trace of charcoal, or, as it happens, that he was either making something up or using someone who did as a source. For a bunch of people who insist all scientists are part of a conspiracy, AAT believers seem to be awfully trusting of people with no experience or qualifications or common sense.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:53 AM   #77

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charcoal flecks in the mortar of the pyramids suggest that they used torches and oil lamps. These were certainly used in the Valley of the Kings, where they made the cramped tombs very smoky.
from the post previous --- lets see here -- not to sound to critical but since i know some paramedics and the family has a lot of medical people (like nurses, PA's, etc) in it --- this is worthless because it hasn't addressed the "oxygen" question -- and the article states with authority "made the cramped tombs very smoky"

and --- did they date the so-called "charcoal" -- lets use gas chromatography analysis of essential oils

Click to View Search Results for gas chromatography analysis of essential oils - Google Search gas chromatography analysis of essential oils - Google Search
Quote:
GC and MS are useful tools for chemical analysis, especially when used together
the following is the google search that i used --
Quote:
Result 1 of 1 in this book for gas chromatography analysis and historical carbon 14
Chemistry - Steven S. Zumdahl, Susan A. Zumdahl - Google Books
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Old December 12th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #78

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hresvelgr View Post
Oh snap, I believe the correct response is. Davu would benefit greatly from sourcing his claims better and using more logic to form them, I should think. Claiming an object in a mural looks vaguely like a modern lightbulb and therefore aliens despite there being no evidence for glass, tungsten, and electricity at the time strikes me as a little more farfetched than the idea that somebody missed a trace of charcoal, or, as it happens, that he was either making something up or using someone who did as a source. For a bunch of people who insist all scientists are part of a conspiracy, AAT believers seem to be awfully trusting of people with no experience or qualifications or common sense.
Well to be fair, I just posted the first link I found that had an alternative explanation... I've read no primary sources on it.

The thing about the chambers etc being decorated during construction, I thought of anyway so it was good to find it in an article too.

I must admit, I'd really love for some artifact to be discovered that can't be explained away. Not because I'm making any ethnocentric judgement about ancients, just that I really really really want to believe in alien visitors. Past or present, I'm not fussy
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Old December 12th, 2012, 10:03 AM   #79

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Quote:
an object in a mural looks vaguely like a modern lightbulb
did i say -- looks vaguely like a modern lightbulb -- you know if your going down that road -- you had better put it quotes --- i'll be glad to pay attention better.

and secondly -- its obvious that you missed the "chill" pill joke -- and this is a stupid joke because you addressed the "lightbulb" and not the REAL QUESTION -- how did they provide lighting -- WITHOUT the smokey room, which brings up another question i need answered --- how did they ventilate the room. eventually they would have all died from smokers lungs -- right or better yet, go ask a fire and rescue person how long a person can live in a enclosed smoke filled room without ventilation and the torch using up all the oxygen.....

since i'm in this thread, i have very specific questions that i need answered. if you cannot answer them, then say so. i will understand because there are very well educated people in this world who cannot answer the "oxygen" question either. so your not alone and to admit such puts you in the science field and not the history field.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 10:04 AM   #80

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How did Egyptians light inside of pyramids? - Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums - Page 3

A quote by one of the people posting there:
Quote:
The absence of smoke-blackening in the tombs of the kings is also no difficult explanation. If olive-oil is used, there is very little smoke, and a suitable covering over the lamp, for which various methods readily suggest themselves, would very easily prevent carbon being deposited on the ceiling.
And, since the rooms in the pyramids were open while the tomb was being constructed, why do they need to spend long, cramped hours in there with no lunches again?

As for the oxygen question, how much oxygen does a small oil lamp consume per hour of burning?
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