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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:16 AM   #11

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Originally Posted by mansamusa View Post
I know that Jamaican maroons sent back to Liberia very often could tell what tribe their parents or grandparents were from. But did such tribal affiliations play any role in Palmares? It was mostly a Creole society made up of Africans born and raised in the new world as far as I know.

...........

And i find it strange that you are so sure that slavery played such a huge part in the ability of Palmares to survive when you and most commentators of the era are not even able to give a detailed account of the scale or nature of that slavery, within Palmares.
Brazilian african history is complex the Quilombos descendent comunities that exist today in some places still speak african dialects some peoples still traces his origins to certain kingdoms in africa.

The Slavery played a part in the fact that Palmares dont wanted liberty for all slaves, they wanted liberty for only Palmares, and for this motive they failed to obtain the suport from all the slaves.
this happened in the muslim Malê Revolt in Bahia.

the percentage of slave that palmares had is not know but the Jesuits wrote that the "king of Palmares was a rich men he had a great number warriors and slaves"

Quote:
Despite represent a resistance to slavery, many quilombos relied on slavery internally. This practice has led many theorists to interpret this practice of as an African conservatism , keeping the various social classes existing in Africa, including kings, generals and slaves


source
Libby, Douglas Cole e Furtado, Júnia Ferreira. Trabalho livre, trabalho escravo: Brasil e Europa, séculos XVIII e XIX. págs. 321-322. Annablume, 2006 - ISBN 8574196274, 9788574196275
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:41 AM   #12

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Originally Posted by Tairusiano View Post
The Slavery played a part in the fact that Palmares dont wanted liberty for all slaves, they wanted liberty for only Palmares, and for this motive they failed to obtain the suport from all the slaves.
this happened in the muslim Malê Revolt in Bahia.

the percentage of slave that palmares had is not know but the Jesuits wrote that the "king of Palmares was a rich men he had a great number warriors and slaves"

Male revolt was in the 19th century---right? What does it have to do with Palmares?

The King of Palmarers having court slaves would be something altogether different from Plantation slavery in the new world. Palmares lost the war because they were outnumbered and outgunned against a determined colonial regime.

They were a besieged community, continually under attack up to the point of their destruction. It would be foolish and unpragmatic for any large maroon community in the new world to worry about anything less than their survival. Aiming to bring an end to slavery in all of Brazil was just suicide.

The emancipation of haiti was the more remarkable for that fact. Its amazing that Palmares was able to last so long.

If slaves were afraid of joining palmares its most likely because of the long list of cruel punishments including death that they would have been subject to by colonial authorities. The threat of Mutilation, torture and hanging are much more likely reasons for them not joining a revolt which was most likely doomed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tairusiano View Post
Brazilian african history is complex the Quilombos descendent comunities that exist today in some places still speak african dialects some peoples still traces his origins to certain kingdoms in africa.
so long.
Maybe the African dialects that are spoken in Brazil are from migrations much later than the slave trade or Palmares. However I dont doubt that it is possible that such dialects may have survived during the period of the slave trade.

However your earlier accussation that Slavery in Palmares had similarities to African tribes enslaving rival tribals in Africa just makes no sense.

Last edited by mansamusa; December 7th, 2012 at 06:49 AM.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 07:17 AM   #13

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Originally Posted by mansamusa View Post
Male revolt was in the 19th century---right? What does it have to do with Palmares?

The King of Palmarers having court slaves would be something altogether different from Plantation slavery in the new world. Palmares lost the war because they were outnumbered and outgunned against a determined colonial regime.

They were a besieged community, continually under attack up to the point of their destruction. It would be foolish and unpragmatic for any large maroon community in the new world to worry about anything less than their survival. Aiming to bring an end to slavery in all of Brazil was just suicide.

The emancipation of haiti was the more remarkable for that fact. Its amazing that Palmares was able to last so long.

If slaves were afraid of joining palmares its most likely because of the long list of cruel punishments including death that they would have been subject to by colonial authorities. The threat of Mutilation, torture and hanging are much more likely reasons for them not joining a revolt which was most likely doomed.



Maybe the African dialects that are spoken in Brazil are from migrations much later than the slave trade or Palmares. However I dont doubt that it is possible that such dialects may have survived during the period of the slave trade.

However your earlier accussation that Slavery in Palmares had similarities to African tribes enslaving rival tribals in Africa just makes no sense.
I only put the Malê revolt as a example a group of slaves that make a revolt and them ignored the rest of the other slaves and in the end was destroyed by not having enough suport.

And the only way of Palmares not being conquered was a great slave revolt, or not breaking the treaty with Portugal.


Quote:
However your earlier accussation that Slavery in Palmares had similarities to African tribes enslaving rival tribals in Africa just makes no sense.
i said that Palmares worked like a africa kingdom with a ruling Bantu or descedent of Bantu class, and that they attacked the sugarcane farms to take slaves to work for them.
I am not accusing anyone i only put some info with sources a Dutch source and a portuguese jesuit

Last edited by Tairusiano; December 7th, 2012 at 07:23 AM.
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Old December 7th, 2012, 06:49 PM   #14

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Originally Posted by Tairusiano View Post
I only put the Malê revolt as a example a group of slaves that make a revolt and them ignored the rest of the other slaves and in the end was destroyed by not having enough suport.

And the only way of Palmares not being conquered was a great slave revolt, or not breaking the treaty with Portugal.




i said that Palmares worked like a africa kingdom with a ruling Bantu or descedent of Bantu class, and that they attacked the sugarcane farms to take slaves to work for them.
I am not accusing anyone i only put some info with sources a Dutch source and a portuguese jesuit
The vast majority of the residents of Palmares were creoles not Bantu. Your sources prove that there was slavery in Palmsres. None of them prove this idea that Palmares lost its independence as a result of said slavery. That's your own original idea that you spun from the thin air.

And your sources gives no details whatsoever as to the scale nature and extent of such slavery.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 02:21 AM   #15

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Originally Posted by mansamusa View Post
The vast majority of the residents of Palmares were creoles not Bantu. Your sources prove that there was slavery in Palmsres. None of them prove this idea that Palmares lost its independence as a result of said slavery. That's your own original idea that you spun from the thin air.

And your sources gives no details whatsoever as to the scale nature and extent of such slavery.
I advise you to read the books
Libby, Douglas Cole e Furtado, Júnia Ferreira. Trabalho livre, trabalho escravo: Brasil e Europa, séculos XVIII e XIX. págs. 321-322. Annablume, 2006 - ISBN 8574196274, 9788574196275

Histórias de Quilombolas Flávio Gomes dos Santos,


Not my own original idea the Candido de Cassio a son of slaves, mounted a whole company of all freed slaves to fight the Palmares "menance",



Henrique Dias by the time the most powerful African-Brazilian called the governor of the Black people offered his soldiers to fought too against the Zumbi (leader of Palmares).

I dont take ideas of thin air my friend i work with facts
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Old December 8th, 2012, 03:36 AM   #16

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tairusiano View Post
I advise you to read the books
Libby, Douglas Cole e Furtado, Júnia Ferreira. Trabalho livre, trabalho escravo: Brasil e Europa, séculos XVIII e XIX. págs. 321-322. Annablume, 2006 - ISBN 8574196274, 9788574196275

Histórias de Quilombolas Flávio Gomes dos Santos,


Not my own original idea the Candido de Cassio a son of slaves, mounted a whole company of all freed slaves to fight the Palmares "menance",



Henrique Dias by the time the most powerful African-Brazilian called the governor of the Black people offered his soldiers to fought too against the Zumbi (leader of Palmares).

I dont take ideas of thin air my friend i work with facts
Tairusiano am confused. You are making reference to blacks fighting on ths side of colonialist as evidence of what exactly? Tell me again-please.

Native indian revolts and slave rebellions in the new World frequently were put down with the assistance of Indian fighters and Black fighters serving as mercenaries for the colonial authorities.

You need to provide a citation which proves that the failure of Palmares was somehow related totheir internal slave policy, the nature of which you are not even able to elaborate on in a way that makes any kind of sense.
.......

And the portuguese used to refer to their militias as henriques. These were militias made up of free coloureds or blacks tasked with putting down slave rebellions. Was Henrique Dias--Governor of the Blacks--- named after such militias or were such militias named after him?

Last edited by mansamusa; December 8th, 2012 at 03:42 AM.
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #17

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[quote=mansamusa;1281085] Tairusiano am confused. You are making reference to blacks fighting on ths side of colonialist as evidence of what exactly? Tell me again-please.
QUOTE]

No i'm making reference to the fight betwen the quilombos
Boris fausto says that
Quote:
there are records of another quilombos forming militias to fight the raids of Zumbi leader of Palmares the Candido de Cassio militia being the most famous


Quote:
Native indian revolts and slave rebellions in the new World frequently were put down with the assistance of Indian fighters and Black fighters serving as mercenaries for the colonial authorities.
i agree with you my people fought for the portuguese against the guaranis, and the Tupi and bororo fought for the spanish against my people this is normal.

Quote:
And the portuguese used to refer to their militias as henriques. These were militias made up of free coloureds or blacks tasked with putting down slave rebellions. Was Henrique Dias--Governor of the Blacks--- named after such militias or were such militias named after him?
Click the image to open in full size.
No Henrique was This guy he became a general and governor
had a private Tercio of freed slaves.
existed the Henriques militias but i'm talking about the guy not the militias formed after

Quote:
You need to provide a citation which proves that the failure of Palmares was somehow related totheir internal slave policy, the nature of which you are not even able to elaborate on in a way that makes any kind of sense.
Johanes Blaer
from my previous post
Quote:
Zumbi Sent to capture slaves from neighboring plantations to work for as slaves in the Quilombo dos Palmares. Also kidnapped rare women, and executed those who wanted to escape the Quilombo ".
Johannes Blaer

i hope you understand my english is bad
and the two books are very recomended
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Old December 8th, 2012, 04:38 AM   #18

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[quote=Tairusiano;1281101]
Quote:
Originally Posted by mansamusa View Post
Tairusiano am confused. You are making reference to blacks fighting on ths side of colonialist as evidence of what exactly? Tell me again-please.
QUOTE]

No i'm making reference to the fight betwen the quilombos
Boris fausto says that



i agree with you my people fought for the portuguese against the guaranis, and the Tupi and bororo fought for the spanish against my people this is normal.


Click the image to open in full size.
No Henrique was This guy he became a general and governor
had a private Tercio of freed slaves.
existed the Henriques militias but i'm talking about the guy not the militias formed after



Johanes Blaer
from my previous post



i hope you understand my english is bad
and the two books are very recomended
Your quotes prove that slavery existed in Palmares. They dont prove that it contributed to the defeat of Palmares. This is what i have been saying.
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Old December 10th, 2012, 12:12 PM   #19
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I think the problem with Palmares is it grew too strong to be ignored by the Portuguese. Many Quilombos survived, some exist still to this day. But a confederation of Mocambos with maybe more than 20 thousand people?
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Old December 10th, 2012, 12:36 PM   #20

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We wouldn't have the quilombos or the caopeaira the national sport of brazil
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