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Old December 9th, 2012, 07:22 PM   #11
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I dont see how Hitler could resist attacking the Soviet Union. He considered them sub-human and not a part of his "master race". That fight was inevitable IMO
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Old December 9th, 2012, 07:44 PM   #12

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I dont see how Hitler could resist attacking the Soviet Union. He considered them sub-human and not a part of his "master race". That fight was inevitable IMO
So were the Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Czechs, and Bulgarians. The Nazis conveniently figured out that the Croats, Czechs, and Slovenes were actually Germans who spoke the wrong language, the Bulgarians were really Bulgars (Turkic), and the Slovaks IDK but the Nazis saw them as a useful ally. Apparently some where speculating that the Ukrainians were goths.

And of course there was the issue of abducting little Polish and east Slav children who had blonde hair and blue eyes on the basis that they must have had "Aryan" ancestors.

They really just pulled some of the stuff out of their asses in order to justify alliances. They were the closest thing to pure evil in human history, and were batshit crazy.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 07:45 PM   #13

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Originally Posted by WeisSaul View Post
Operation Barbarossa - Cut Short
Axis History Forum • View topic - Stalin Sought Peace Treaty With Hitler?

Not the best of sources, but still they're something.

He apparently offered Ukraine, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Bukovina, Bessabaria, and the territories won from Finland in the winter war.

At the time Crimea was a part of the RSFSR, so that would have stayed with the Soviet Union I think.

Like I said above, Stalin probably was just trying to buy time to build up industry in the rest of the Soviet Union. Since the territories to be ceded were already under German occupation and thus useless to the war effort at the time, it only would have been a positive at the moment in time.

The US would probably still have been funneling lend-lease into the Soviet Union, so by 1942-1943 the Germans would have been in big trouble. Especially considering the amount of resources that would have been wasted trying to keep the Ukrainians (who were treated like dirt despite welcoming the Germans initially, terrible planning on the Nazis part but they're insane ideology made such terrible treatment inevitable) down with Soviet weapons being smuggled in.
Sorry this is fantasy.
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Old December 9th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #14

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Sorry but this is not history its sheer fantasy the thread title is axis history forum and bull.
More bull than history me thinks.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 08:01 PM   #15

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Hitler was a great leader, but he was a murdering lunatic at the same time. He is a man of many sides. Prolific writer and eloquent speaker, but cold hearted and suspisious. He drew great men to his side, such as most of his generals and political advisors, yet he often would force them to do stupid things. Only Rommel ever stood up to him, that desicion almost won Hitler the war. It was very close how that war came. If we hadn't cracked the engima code, if Poland or France had lasted longer, such as realizing that the Germans were coming through the Ardenalles, or however you spell that forest. If the Japenese had stayed a small power, and thus never attacked America. If Russia and Germany had been best pals, okay, that one might be a stretchbut you get my point. If the French listened to the voice of one young officer called De Gaull and his strange ideas of tank tactics. Oh, those commanders. Wanted cavalry in an infantry battle (WWI) then wanted infantry for a cavalry battle! (Tanks, WWII).

This is slightly disturbing to me, as my maternal grandfather's family were jews from Poland/Russia. A little before the war I believe, say around the first world war. While my Father's father flew as a belly gunner over D-Day. While my Maternal Grandmother propely built that plane he flew in. I have a connection to this, and I'm quite glad that Hitler never won. Did I mention that my Polish grandfather was Jewish? If his father had not left for the statue of liberty.... That, gentlemen, is why speculative history can be very disturbing.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 09:23 PM   #16

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Originally Posted by sylla1 View Post
If that is a serious answer, it is therefore an unsourced statement.

AFAIK no mercy was offered nor asked all along Barbarossa proper.
This seems to have been referenced before
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You (& the OP) are probably talking about the famous story of Dr. Peter Kleist, a former SS & subordinate of Alfred Rosenberg (Nazi Minister for the occupied Eastern Territories), who published in the German newspaper Die Zeit (Oct 1949) his version on an alleged Soviet-Nazi contact through the "non-Aryan Baltic" businessman Edgar Klauss, the former Soviet ambassador in Germany Vladimir G Dekanosov and Georgi J Aleksandrov (a functionary of the local embassy) in Stockholm all along the summer of 1943.

This version was popular (even among serious historians) for a long time, but it was never independently confirmed and it was actually discredited by Die Zeit itself in 1989 (Kleist died by suicide in 1971).

AFAIK this tale is currently considered as a fraud by most historians, with the exception of some sensationalist right-wingers like David Irving (possibly your source here).
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Old December 13th, 2012, 10:04 PM   #17
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This seems to have been referenced before
First, which part of "Barbarossa proper" (i.e 1941) was not clear enough?

Then, the famous Peter Kleist tale is after so many years still just entirely unsupported gossips; after so many years of extensive research, the absolute absence of evidence inevitably becomes overwhelming evidence of absence.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:04 PM   #18
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There would've still been a British Empire. Germany would rule Europe (like they do today) and there would be no multiculturalism in Europe. America would not be power house of the world and Cultural Matrix would not rule the world, Germans and Europeans would've ruled the world. There would've been a new currency created by Hitler.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 06:53 AM   #19

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the partisans and resistance moves would have destroyed germany? if not, they would atleast annoy hitler to death.
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Old December 14th, 2012, 08:59 AM   #20
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Back to the OP, to begin with and with all due respect, the beginner of this thread (which apparently has not come back here yet) ostensibly had some problems to define the own idea, presumably both conceptual and linguistic.

As timely pointed out by other Historumites there seem to be some controversial statements here, either implicit or explicit; e.g.:
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Germany founded EU,but 4 countries joined it:Germany,Italy,Spain,USSR
First, Herr Hitler definitely didn't found the EU (the III Reich was not even any ancestry of the EU) and one could guess is such conception may be common in Turkey or any other location.

Even the infamous phrase Festung Europa "Fortress of Europe" of the Nazi propaganda was an entirely different, unrelated and largely fictitious concept according to which the Aryan & Aryan-like peoples of the Continent would have joined forces in a Crusade-like sacred war under the Messianic leadership of the Führer against Bolchevism, Jews and other real or purported international menaces.
(Needless to say, this propagandistic concept was largely restricted to the twisted mind of Dr Goebbels).

Then, the regularly complex relationship between the III Reich and each of the three aforementioned powers was rather different in each case:

- From some initial mutual nationalist conflict the Fascist Italy soon became the closest German ally, even if this nation didn't join the war until the utter military collapse of the Western front was already a fact.
Even so, the Fascist Italy had the uncomfortable tendency (for the Germans) of keeping an independent agenda from the very beginning; e.g. Mussolini supported Franco much more enthusiastically than Hitler, and Italian soldiers fought against the Soviets (in Finland as "voluntaries") long before the Germans themselves.
After the Fall of Mussolini the Italian kiingdom became a de facto defeated enemy for both sides, while a barely extant collaborationist regime euphemistically called "Repubblica Sociale Italiana" (aka the Republic of Salo) was improvised by the Germans in their occupied zone.

- The anti-communist III Reich gave some valuable but often uneasy (for both sides) support to the Spain of Franco against the leftist Republic during the long Spanish Civil War.
However, both for his close economic ties with the UK & America and for finding the proposed German compensation too meager, Franco actually evaded any close cooperation against the West.
Conversely, the anti-communist Spain most enthusiastically participated in the war against the Soviets.
The timely emergence of the Cold War and its remote western position ostensibly saved Spain frok the expectable retribution.

- In spite of the inherent virtually absolute ideological incompatibility between Nazism & Communism, the Soviet Union opportunistically profited from the very beginning from the war between her major enemies by reaching a critical agreement on the mutual spheres of influence with the III Reich (ostensibly the weakest side at the beginning) that largely tended to balance the military odds of both sides of such war.
After the amazing sudden total collapse of the western front & France, it became evident for both the III Reich and the USSR that the eventual mutual clash was inevitabl.
The mutual diplomatic approaches between both powers never resulted in any true military alliance and in hindsight it's evident that both sides were trying to gain some valuable time for duly stabbing each other; Herr Hitler was eventually able to achieve tactical surprise against Uncle Joe, and from then onward the fierce colossal fanatic clash in the Eastern Front became by large the major portion of WW2 in Europe.
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