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Old December 11th, 2012, 10:55 AM   #11

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This is true, yes, but 'global' to us means the whole planet while 'global' to older civilisations was a much more limited concept. Indeed the word itself is only a few hundred years old, so I'd replace it in this context with something like "world-wide".

But anyway, while a historical flood from our 21st Century perspective might well seem small and localised, I find it quite believable that to those who lived through it at the time, it could have appeared to cover the whole world.
I agree. Either that or the scale of the flood grew in size as the flood narrative took on greater theological importance. We are likely talking about several thousand years between the actual events and the versions of the stories that we are familiar with.

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Old December 11th, 2012, 11:06 AM   #12

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The next ten years may prove very embarassing to the many naysayers in the archeological community, especially those without imaginations.
While an imagination isn't necessarily a bad thing, conjecture can go too far. I will believe in Atlantis when it's found, and I'll believe in Noah's Ark when it's found. But as of right now, there isn't enough hard evidence to prove Atlantis even existed, let alone was large enough to cause the flood from the creation myths.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 11:20 AM   #13

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While an imagination isn't necessarily a bad thing, conjecture can go too far. I will believe in Atlantis when it's found, and I'll believe in Noah's Ark when it's found. But as of right now, there isn't enough hard evidence to prove Atlantis even existed, let alone was large enough to cause the flood from the creation myths.
Yes. I think it's important to view mythology in the context of the time. Too often we seek simplistic dichotomies; "It must either be historically accurate fact by modern scientific standards or entirely fairy stories."

The truth is, both of these positions rely on imposing modern standards of thought onto ancient people, and thus will likely miss the mark, IMO.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #14

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While an imagination isn't necessarily a bad thing, conjecture can go too far. I will believe in Atlantis when it's found, and I'll believe in Noah's Ark when it's found. But as of right now, there isn't enough hard evidence to prove Atlantis even existed, let alone was large enough to cause the flood from the creation myths.
"Hard evidence" is what tends to hold conservative professionals from thinking innovatively. The "hard evidence" at first certainly didn't support Eistein's theories which were considered counter-intuitive at the time. But in retrospect are now considered imaginative conjecture. Everything in this universe is part of a great puzzle. Part of hidden, unrecognizable or even yet provable patterns. Sometimes "conjecture" can trigger a realization or recognition of a pattern in any individual. One that also leads to insight and thus to hard evidence. Very few conservative professionals ever really come up with such insights. It takes the pro-active individuals with imaginations to light a fire under the entropy of conservatism. An entropy that most often kills or suffocates innovative thinking. Creativity must never be stiffled under any circumstances. To do so condemns such societies to the ashbin of history.
Apparently, you are not familiar with the landslide theory of how far larger tsunamis are created by landslides beyond the usual constraints of tectonic causalities. There is an island out there in the Atlantic that on occasion has had volcanic created landslides that if one were to occur at anytime would race across the Atlantic Ocean and destroy the eastern coasts of the United States. And this is a mere landslide. Image what might occur if this island suddenly totally sank into the sea? This is not a very large island either. Not only would the US be devastated, but also the coasts of western Europe as well. Now that would be "hard evidence." Just how much land do you think would be required to be quickly subsumed to create a 1-2 mile high Tsunami? This would only require a land mass that reached upwards to a mile and 5200 feet is not that high. Many volcanos reach far beyond that height. Drop any rock into water and watch the effect it has on not only the volume of water moved but how high the water rises. Of course this has everything to do with the kinetic energy created or acquired by the mass of whatever is being subsumed. Plato clearly states the surface extension of Atlantis as being larger than Libya and Asia ( in actuality Asia Minor) combined. Now even at any ultra-conservative estimate of what that description entails, this is no small land mass. One can only imagine the devastation that the tsunami from Santorini caused to the Minoan World and that was from an explosion not an entire island/continent sinking into the sea. Remember this also. There was no evidence of any kind that Gobekli Tepe even existed 20 years ago. No written historical mention, no mythology, no legends. No "hard evidence" of any kind. But there it is.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 11:55 AM   #15

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Yes. I think it's important to view mythology in the context of the time. Too often we seek simplistic dichotomies; "It must either be historically accurate fact by modern scientific standards or entirely fairy stories."

The truth is, both of these positions rely on imposing modern standards of thought onto ancient people, and thus will likely miss the mark, IMO.
At one time educated people all over the world believed that the advanced constructions found in the New World could not have been created by the native peoples who lived here. They had to be built by lost tribes of Israel, Egyptians or Europeans. Very ethnocentric and very faulty. Now days its' aliens.
Despite the reports concerning the magnificent structures the Spaniards knew of and reported were built by the Aztecs, these were
subsequently torn down or built over. Apparently out of sight-out of mind. We now realize that not only were the natives peoples capable of such constructions, but that we are not fully aware of what else they were capable of.
There is no such thing as a simplistic dichotomy. Everything lies within a spectrum of opposition. A spectrum of dichotomy. Possibly even a quadrinary spectrum consisting of anti-polarities as well as regular polarities. And such spectrums can have a wide spread of variation between these polarities.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 12:13 PM   #16

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At one time educated people all over the world believed that the advanced constructions found in the New World could not have been created by the native peoples who lived here. They had to be built by lost tribes of Israel, Egyptians or Europeans. Very ethnocentric and very faulty.
Yep, it seems that when we make assumptions in the absence of knowledge that we tend to be wrong more often than we are right.

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There is no such thing as a simplistic dichotomy. Everything lies within a spectrum of opposition. A spectrum of dichotomy. Possibly even a quadrinary spectrum consisting of anti-polarities as well as regular polarities. And such spectrums can have a wide spread of variation between these polarities.
I disagree. A dichotomy is achieved by simplifying phenomena into one of two non-overlapping magisteria . . . . a few examples being; good and evil, true and false, black and white, etc.

I agree that in reality there are degrees or as you put it, as spectrum of possibility. This is the point that I was intending to make and why I generally disagree with simplistic dichotomies.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:10 PM   #17

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Today, in the news, the man responsible for discovering the Titanic and other lost ships, claims to know where the Ark of Noah actually is. He believes it is in Turkey. And is making plans to locate it. This guy is obviously no fool.
Robert Ballard finds evidence for Noah's Flood; Noah's Ark Evidence May Have Finally Been Found According To Oceanographer Robert Ballard

Noah's Ark came to rest on Mount Ararat. Public knowledge for 1,000s of years (the Book of Genesis). Ballard does not think it exists, nor is he looking for it.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:14 PM   #18

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Robert Ballard finds evidence for Noah's Flood; Noah's Ark Evidence May Have Finally Been Found According To Oceanographer Robert Ballard

Noah's Ark came to rest on Mount Ararat. Public knowledge for 1,000s of years (the Book of Genesis). Ballard does not think it exists, nor is he looking for it.
Just look at the two statements you posted. Talk about total contradiction. One is a link title and the other a personal comment.
I usually do not access the Huffington Post because the script they use manages to screw up my computer. However, with extended and lengthy patience, I was finally able to access the link you posted. It took 15 minutes. Talk about a totally misleading headline. A perfect example of "spin." The substance of the article was about a Black Sea Flood and nothing about Noah's Ark. The source I accessed this AM had a completely different version and a similar headline for this news item. Just goes to prove that even news sources are not trustworthy. Even you must have had your doubts about posting the above two separate sentences in the same post?
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:29 PM   #19

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I agree that in reality there are degrees or as you put it, as spectrum of possibility. This is the point that I was intending to make and why I generally disagree with simplistic dichotomies.
Which is why I tend to look at the wider variety or potential within all spectrums. As an artist I am quite familiar with the numerous possibilities of the visual color Spectrum. In color there appears to be a polarity between the unseen ultra violet and infra red, but the center also seems to have its own particular purity as well. Yellow in one spectrum (the rainbow) and lime green in the anti rainbow. In the normal rainbow, red yellow and dark blue are the primary colors. In the anti-rainbow the primaries are orange, lime green and an aqua blue. When a artist mixes paints the normal spectrum is considered. However, when the eye alone is used to mix color it is the anti rainbow that is used. And the potential variety of visual color appears almost infinite. Especially when you take into account, secondary colors, tints and shades.
I suspect that there is a spectrum and an anti-spectrum for every phenomenon in the universe.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 05:37 PM   #20

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I agree. Either that or the scale of the flood grew in size as the flood narrative took on greater theological importance. We are likely talking about several thousand years between the actual events and the versions of the stories that we are familiar with.
There is a third possibility being overlooked here. That a worldwide catastrophe actually took place over the entire water surface of the planet's oceans. That it was not piecemeal as has been suggested, but an unusual singular event whose causality remains as of yet unknown. Indications are beginning to accrue that such a worldwide event may have actually occurred. Something akin to the same singular causality that appears to have extinguished all the large dinosauria. The main question is could the sinking of Atlantis into the ocean in a single day and night be this causality? The dating of Atlantis sinking into the ocean around 12,000 years ago by Plato is beginning to look far more credible in light of the numerous forms of other information coming out about this particular period.
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