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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:50 AM   #21

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Exactly, But I assume you understand the point I was trying to make...
I don't And I'd love to know how 'modern tests' researched that secenario...
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:51 AM   #22

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There was a famous story during the American Civil War, where a lady sitting on her front porch, watching a battle taking place quite a distance away from where she sat, was impregnated by a bullet which hit her in the stomach, after piercing through the scrotum of a high ranking union officer. Which meant that the bullet had traveled all that way carrying the officer's "seed" and impregnated the woman. In fact, after the war, the officer married the woman, for "his son's sake".

Now what do you suppose that modern tests discovered about this scenario??? That it is in fact impossible for a woman to be impregnated by the method described here. They also found out that the woman had in fact had an "affair" out of "wedlock", which resulted in her pregnancy.

The good news is that the Union officer did indeed fall in love with the woman after marrying her, and the "family" lived very happily. But I am sure you understand the point I am trying to make.
That's a bit far fetched, I think they call it a shotgun wedding. I do know a lesbian couple who one of them had a baby with no intercourse taken place with a man. Its no great miracle.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 03:52 AM   #23

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Eastern mythologies and folklore tended to conjure babies out of various pieces of vegetation, rather than by virgin birth. The Japanese story of the moon princess (Kaguya-hime) was born out of a bamboo stalk, and Momotaro, the peach-boy was born, unsurprisingly, from a peach.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:04 AM   #24

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'Virgin' was also used to describe an unmarried woman. I'm interested now to find out the process of translation which led to the use of the word in the context of Mary. Unless someone already knows and feels like posting to save me the research

But (just uninformed waffling really) I can't see that all the various 'virgin birth' religious stories should be explained by the points you mention AlpinLuke. It seems a stretch that they're all the result of 'cover ups' especially when the virginity aspect is presented as part of the supernatural event.
Absolutely ... the "cover up" hypothesis is actually a later over structure, more suitable for our culture than for the ancient pasts; in this perspective, becoming a bit technical, I would say it's a modernist reading of the tradition.

In the postmodernist vision we should rely on the legacy of the past also to understand the tradition.

A virgin birth is not only something incredible in their historical context, but also something granting the absolute purity to the newborn.

Connected with sexual activity there are several conceptualization of sin, temptation of the flesh, carnal existence as inferior [with reference to holiness, not spirituality, let's remember that ancient Jews weren't that ready to accept the existence of the soul in the Christian sense].

Furthermore, focusing on Jewish tradition, the woman has got the trouble of the blood and blood is impure [in Deuteronomy it's said that a woman cannot be touched when blood is present].

Again we can make reference to the Kuran to understand better the point: Gabriel underlines just purity of Isa to Maryam announcing her incoming pregnancy.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:06 AM   #25

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Eastern mythologies and folklore tended to conjure babies out of various pieces of vegetation, rather than by virgin birth. The Japanese story of the moon princess (Kaguya-hime) was born out of a bamboo stalk, and Momotaro, the peach-boy was born, unsurprisingly, from a peach.
Curiously popular tradition in Italy suggests to say to children that children have carried by a stork or that they have found under the cabbages [!]

Again, it's about a removal, a repression, of the sexual act.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:11 AM   #26

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Absolutely ... the "cover up" hypothesis is actually a later over structure, more suitable for our culture than for the ancient pasts; in this perspective, becoming a bit technical, I would say it's a modernist reading of the tradition...
Yes. I think it's another aspect of the trend to put religion on a scientific footing, which for me misses the whole point about miracles. Personally I'm agnostic but I have no issue with others believing and I don't feel any need for them to provide proof or plausible explanation beyond that of faith.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:15 AM   #27

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Curiously popular tradition in Italy suggests to say to children that children have carried by a stork or that they have found under the cabbages [!]

Again, it's about a removal, a repression, of the sexual act.
Ditto in the UK. I think it's also because of adults' distaste/embarrassment over discussing sex with children... possibly something about delaying the loss of childhood innocence too.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:18 AM   #28

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the term parthenia was first used by Ignatius of Antiochia after 110. In John 1, 45 he is called the son of Josef and in Rom. 1, 3 Jesus is called the seed of David. and even jesaja doesn't mention parthenia. he wrote alma, which means young woman and not necessarily virgin.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:29 AM   #29

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the term parthenia was first used by Ignatius of Antiochia after 110. In John 1, 45 he is called the son of Josef and in Rom. 1, 3 Jesus is called the seed of David. and even jesaja doesn't mention parthenia. he wrote alma, which means young woman and not necessarily virgin.
But the gospels still describe a miraculous event even if they don't use the term 'parthenia'? e.g. Matthew "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost".

Bible Questions Answered - Were Joseph and Mary really married before Jesus was born?
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Old December 11th, 2012, 04:36 AM   #30

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But the gospels still describe a miraculous event even if they don't use the term 'parthenia'? e.g. Matthew "she was found with child of the Holy Ghost".

Bible Questions Answered - Were Joseph and Mary really married before Jesus was born?
Matthew was written between 80 and 100 supposely. so it is not far away from Ignatius, who quoted him.
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