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Old December 11th, 2012, 12:42 PM   #41
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I think Mary was full of it. She lied about not sleeping around and by the time it was embraced as a miracle, even coming clean couldn't have stopped it
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:20 PM   #42

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I think Mary was full of it. She lied about not sleeping around and by the time it was embraced as a miracle, even coming clean couldn't have stopped it
I think it's more likely that the virgin birth bit developed after Jesus' death when he was given god-like status, in line with many other Greco-Roman heroic figures.
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:35 PM   #43
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I think it's more likely that the virgin birth bit developed after Jesus' death when he was given god-like status, in line with many other Greco-Roman heroic figures.
Makes sense
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Old December 11th, 2012, 01:48 PM   #44

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If a Jewish woman were to ever claim that she was impregnated by god in first century Palestine, she would be guilty of both adultery and blasphemy in the eyes of many contemporary Jews.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:37 AM   #45
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We shouldn't blame Mary for a story that arose after her death. The earliest Christian writings, the Gospel of Mark, and Paul's letters, make no mention of a Virgin birth, and there isn't any hint in them that Joseph wasn't Jesus father. If there were rumors going around at Jesus time, then Mark would have had some responses to them.

All the stories that imply illegitimacy are clearly a reaction to the Virgin birth story. Not sure why that story arose, perhaps a misreading of the OT verse that a maiden shall conceive, or that an ordinary birth wasn't good enough. But any hint of illegitimacy is a late creation.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 01:42 PM   #46
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I wonder what the equivalent for a Milk Man was in first century Palestine?
A Roman soldier is the equivalent for "a visit from the milk man."

As for virginity -

You can have sex with a girl with her underwear still on, the sperm will go through the small holes of the underwear and slip past the hymen right into the womb. Thus she is still a virgin, as for virginity after birth - a C-section.

And let us not forget about invento-fertilization and cloning. Technically, a girl could have a child via these and still be a virgin.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:13 PM   #47

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A Roman soldier is the equivalent for "a visit from the milk man."

As for virginity -

You can have sex with a girl with her underwear still on, the sperm will go through the small holes of the underwear and slip past the hymen right into the womb. Thus she is still a virgin, as for virginity after birth - a C-section.

And let us not forget about invento-fertilization and cloning. Technically, a girl could have a child via these and still be a virgin.
Aye, but highly unlikely in the first century.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:20 PM   #48

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A Roman soldier is the equivalent for "a visit from the milk man."

As for virginity -

You can have sex with a girl with her underwear still on, the sperm will go through the small holes of the underwear and slip past the hymen right into the womb. Thus she is still a virgin, as for virginity after birth - a C-section.

And let us not forget about invento-fertilization and cloning. Technically, a girl could have a child via these and still be a virgin.
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Aye, but highly unlikely in the first century.
Also as discussed above, the older meanings of 'virgin' cover circumstances other than "woman who has never had sex."
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Old December 14th, 2012, 09:50 AM   #49

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If there were a natural explanation for it, it would no longer be a miracle. Miracle, by definition, is something beyond natural laws. Virgin birth was a miraculous event.
/endthread
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Old December 15th, 2012, 07:09 AM   #50
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Aye, but highly unlikely in the first century.
a roman soldier raping a woman with her clothing on is very likely in the first century, and so is the C-section (legend has it Julius Ceaser, was born via C-section, that is how it got its name). actually Simon Magus (before he jumped off a tower and tried and failed to fly) and various others in Rome suggested this as a solution to "virgin" brith - that some roman soldier named Pandara (Panther) raped a Jewish girl producing the heritic.
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