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Old December 12th, 2012, 04:59 PM   #41

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You really studied up on this? I really don't know where to begin or how to respond.

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The knowledge of propulsion and the knowledge of flight are two different things. The principles of flight, as was originally discovered long before the Wright brothers, were based on an understanding of the principles of heavier than air sustainability. Something demonstrated for millions of years by birds, bats and insects. This principle is based on shape. This "shape" may have been known about by several ancient peoples. Including the Atlanteans, Indians, Greeks, etc. It is the foundation of the word aerodynamic.
The shape makes it fuel efficient, yes?

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The problem essentially was not in creating this "shape" but making it light enough for any system of attached propulsion to lift it into the air. The Wright brothers were originally bicycle builders, so they were aware of how to construct strong, yet light, structures. Wood, wire and canvas were the materials they came up with. Not unlike what Leonardo Da Vinci also proposed in his own flying machine 400+ years earlier.
The propulsion system, however, is an entirely different matter. Flying creatures uses muscle energy or chemical energy. And this is extremely taxing on biological systems. So it has to be highly efficient.
The invention of the gas powered engine created the potential for a light enough device to turn a "propellor" at a speed capable of not only lifting the Wright's machine, but also moving it forward.
Propulsion is very important, i agree. But The idea of lifting a multi ton object off the ground during a controlled sustained flight comes from the lift provided by the wing and not so much as the shape, which only directly effects fuel efficiency by less drag and not so much as lift, per se. Without it the wing, people might as well be strapping themselves to rockets, launching themselves into the air and hope for the best.

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Ion propulsion would require a light enough device to place into any aerodynamic shape and move it not only off the ground but forward. This would require extremely advanced materials technology, as we cannot currently create an ion propulsion system both light enough and powerful enough to do as the Vedas suggest was accomplished thousands of years ago. Jet propulsion is not ion propulsion. Moreover, ion propulsion seems to be most effective in a friction free environment such as space. Especially since ion propulsion is actually a slow building form of propulsion and does not yet produce the energy level that can move a heavy object out of the atmosphere. If it ever could.
Let's simplify this. Propulsion: The two are indeed different propulsion systems. The Jet engine is centered around a fossil based fuel that ignites easily and furthermore provides sufficient power for thrust in our atmosphere. And Ion propulsion, or thruster, is based on electrical propulsion with plasma as the accelerant using either categories of electrostatic or electromagnetic force to move an object, or iow... the creation of heat which is far more suitable for the vacuum of space rather than the friction encountered in our liquified atmosphere, as i understand this certain issue.

(Speculative) For far more advanced alien species: Most scientists who have actually looked at this issue seriously, state that any alleged inter galactic traveling aliens would not get very far from their home world using anything but an anti-gravitational propulsion device. There is nothing else comparably efficient.

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As to what the Atlanteans accomplished. They had come up with an entirely different means of propulsion. One using the ability of crystals to focus and amplify energy.Technology that is being explored in the world of LASERs. It did not take them long at all to come up with an aerodynamic shape and light enough materials. They simply used nature as their design template for shape. Wood was plentiful. They merely used the template for building sea-going ships to build their small airships. And they used a now lost crystal technology to propel these airships. Moreover, the developement of airships thousands of years ago would have given whomever possessed them very significant and powerful advantages over all ground based societies.
The problem i think, for the sake of simplicity... with a powerful enough laser technology, crystal or chemical, as a propulsion system, is that if there is nothing solid behind it to counteract and focus the beam, then the beam will just go on forever or until it does come into contact with a large enough solid object. Or in other words, for something as powerful as laser propulsion, anything behind or in the way of it's thrust for hundreds to thousands of miles away would simply be completely obliterated.

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The main problem I am having with the descriptions of these "Vedic" devices is the weight and the expulsion of enough energy to lift a mercury based device. Mercury is a very heavy material and the technology required to get mercury ionization propulsion to work would also have to be very heavy. It would require cybernetic, chemical, fluidic, engineering and advanced material technologies. The design process for such a device would be mind boggling and way beyond what we are currently capable of. One has only to look at the materials that go into the creation of jet and a jet engine to get the picture. I am not aware of any current ion propulsion system that can lift or move such weight within an atmosphere. At least not yet. And common sense would tell you that if such technology was already possible, we would be using it.
That is because, to the best of our knowledge, it simply can't. Which to my mind, puts all this in the field of mythical dreams thought up by a master story teller.
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Old December 12th, 2012, 07:53 PM   #42

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Originally Posted by Panthera tigris altaica View Post

The shape makes it fuel efficient, yes?
Shape has a lot to do with flight. Air must flow faster under the wing than over it. This will create a lifting pressure. this pressure will lift any aerodynamic object as long as the air flow is sufficient and fast enough to compensate for the weight to be lifted. It is all about the movement of atmosphere over any wing surface.
In jet propulsion it requires a different shape. More swept back wings to compensate for both pressure and bow shock waves. Design has much to do with any technology when it comes to flight. Aerodynamics has everything to do with air flow over and around shapes. Fuel efficiency can be enhanced by any less resistant shape. However, fuel efficiency also has much to do with how the fuel is used and the design efficiency of the propulsion engine.



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Propulsion is very important, i agree. But The idea of lifting a multi ton object off the ground during a controlled sustained flight comes from the lift provided by the wing and not so much as the shape, which only directly effects fuel efficiency by less drag and not so much as lift, per se. Without it the wing, people might as well be strapping themselves to rockets, launching themselves into the air and hope for the best.
Exactly. A rocket does not require aerodynamic lifting capability. Propulsive force alone is great enough to move it upwards. However, even a rocket needs stabilization and directional guidance. Plus an improperly designed non-aerodynamic rocket shape would be counter-productive and highly inefficient.



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(Speculative) For far more advanced alien species: Most scientists who have actually looked at this issue seriously, state that any alleged inter galactic traveling aliens would not get very far from their home world using anything but an anti-gravitational propulsion device. There is nothing else comparably efficient.
A time/Space bubble could surround an object and be propelled to almost infinite levels of speed, The object inside the bubble would be unaffected by relativistic constraints. Also any object inside the bubble would not be moving at all. Only the Time/Space bubble, itself. Relativity does not appear to affect Time or Space, only matter.
One can only begin to imagine what kind of technology would be required to establish and maintain such a bubble. To create it and then extinguish or turn it off. The ability to manipulate dimensions might provide such a capability. Since most of the Universe is three times as old as our Solar System, plenty of time has passed for extra-terrestrials to come to grips with the travel potential of dimensional manipulation.


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The problem i think, for the sake of simplicity... with a powerful enough laser technology, crystal or chemical, as a propulsion system, is that if there is nothing solid behind it to counteract and focus the beam, then the beam will just go on forever or until it does come into contact with a large enough solid object. Or in other words, for something as powerful as laser propulsion, anything behind or in the way of it's thrust for hundreds to thousands of miles away would simply be completely obliterated
Actually LASERs do have the ability for propulsion. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Laser propulsion is one of the concepts being considered for travel to the stars. Photons do have some mass and can apply some pressure to other forms of matter. The concept of using sails to capture these LASER photons is already under consideration. Laser propulsion will not work in atmospheres. The emptiness of space is another matter.
(a speculation): However, the way the Atlanteans used their crystal technology was similar to LASER principles except that they possessed a crystal that amplified and focused the energy of thought. Moreover, the discipline for this "thought" focus required 20 years to reach each propulsive or lifting level. Of which there were five successive levels called Adepts, starting with clear, blue, red, yellow and finally white. Each color determined the amount of weight it was possible to lift or move. And each Adepts'r crystal would change to the appropriate color once it was capable of focusing that level of energy. Obviously most of the "White Adepts" were in their 80's so there were very few of these. The vast majority were either Blue or Red Adepts. White Adepts were quite powerful.



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That is because, to the best of our knowledge, it simply can't. Which to my mind, puts all this in the field of mythical dreams thought up by a master story teller
.
Everything that man has ever created or developed was once a dream in someone's mind. That person only had to actualize his dream. Then others added their own insight or dreams to this process.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 01:51 PM   #43
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The old Vinma legend again. How fun. I suspect that it was only a dream or maybe a prediction of the future.

Take the Indian poem - (I am paraphrasing it)

"And xxx (diety I cannot pronounce) lifted up her bow, before her stood the ashura and behind the yakasa (two mythological creatures). And the men cowered in fear for On the tip sat Shiva, thus spoke Shiva, "I am the destroyer of worlds" and xxx let loose the arrow and for a thousand, thousand miles it flew. Brighter than ten suns did the forests burn...the mountains sang and the earth danced....The elephants died...the hair of the women fell out, the children became lepers, and all that was left was the shadows of men."
In my opinion some Indian psychic may have seen the atom bombing of Hiroshima, but it stretches credibility that India had the atomic weapons before the birth of Jesus.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 02:08 PM   #44

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Ancient City Found In India Irradiated By Nuclear Blast 8,000 Years Ago...

Though one might have thought that it would be a sign of civilization not to wage nuclear wars!
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Old December 13th, 2012, 03:08 PM   #45

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The Atlanteans did not provide them. Time travelling ninjas did. I've said this before. Now if you don't believe me, disprove it.
Agreed. Naturally katanas are so sharp that they can cut the very fabric of space/time with the proper technique. I thought this was common knowledge?
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Old December 13th, 2012, 07:47 PM   #46

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Wait for it to get out of the shadows. My advise to you. If you have all the instructions, why doesn't someone build it and see if it works? Somone credible preferably.
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Old December 13th, 2012, 11:47 PM   #47

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
Shape has a lot to do with flight. Air must flow faster under the wing than over it. This will create a lifting pressure. this pressure will lift any aerodynamic object as long as the air flow is sufficient and fast enough to compensate for the weight to be lifted. It is all about the movement of atmosphere over any wing surface.
In jet propulsion it requires a different shape. More swept back wings to compensate for both pressure and bow shock waves. Design has much to do with any technology when it comes to flight. Aerodynamics has everything to do with air flow over and around shapes. Fuel efficiency can be enhanced by any less resistant shape. However, fuel efficiency also has much to do with how the fuel is used and the design efficiency of the propulsion engine.
I am sorry. I thought you were talking about the body shape of an aircraft.

Quote:
A time/Space bubble could surround an object and be propelled to almost infinite levels of speed, The object inside the bubble would be unaffected by relativistic constraints. Also any object inside the bubble would not be moving at all. Only the Time/Space bubble, itself. Relativity does not appear to affect Time or Space, only matter.
One can only begin to imagine what kind of technology would be required to establish and maintain such a bubble. To create it and then extinguish or turn it off. The ability to manipulate dimensions might provide such a capability. Since most of the Universe is three times as old as our Solar System, plenty of time has passed for extra-terrestrials to come to grips with the travel potential of dimensional manipulation.
Well, yes... but this is only speculative theory, some would claim wildly.

Quote:
Actually LASERs do have the ability for propulsion. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Laser propulsion is one of the concepts being considered for travel to the stars. Photons do have some mass and can apply some pressure to other forms of matter. The concept of using sails to capture these LASER photons is already under consideration. Laser propulsion will not work in atmospheres. The emptiness of space is another matter.
Really!? This is the first i've head of this. Not that i doubt your integrity for an instant, but i would like to see the source that this is based on please.

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Everything that man has ever created or developed was once a dream in someone's mind. That person only had to actualize his dream. Then others added their own insight or dreams to this process.
So, let me see if this sounds right, i get the impression that the issue has your kind of torn?
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Old December 14th, 2012, 07:50 AM   #48

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So Linschoten, this thread is just a big troll-fest? Poking fun at the Indians are we?
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Old December 14th, 2012, 08:02 AM   #49

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Originally Posted by Zarin View Post
Shape has a lot to do with flight. Air must flow faster under the wing than over it. This will create a lifting pressure.
Sorry to be picky but it's vice versa - air moves faster over the top of an aeroplane's wing than under. (Same number of air molecules covering more distance in the same time = lower pressure = lift.)
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Old December 14th, 2012, 08:08 AM   #50

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Originally Posted by Sicknero View Post
Sorry to be picky but it's vice versa - air moves faster over the top of an aeroplane's wing than under. (Same number of air molecules covering more distance in the same time = lower pressure = lift.)
You are right. However, it is the shape that does the lifting. The distance over the top is longer because of the curved shape. Thanks for this correction.
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