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View Poll Results: what country would have taken over Siam if they never industrialised and why?
Germany 1 5.56%
Spain 0 0%
United Kingdom 5 27.78%
France 9 50.00%
Netherlands 1 5.56%
Belgium 1 5.56%
Portugal 0 0%
Italy 0 0%
United States 1 5.56%
German,French and British 0 0%
Voters: 18. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 15th, 2012, 07:06 AM   #11

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Why isn't Canada listed?
Canada had no colonies in the Pacific ocean
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Old December 15th, 2012, 08:23 AM   #12

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I would say France. Given the actual history. With the Bowring Treaty between Great Britain and Siam, many of the economic and legal issues of concern to the British were largely settled in their favor. Consequently, the British turned more to their interests in Malaysia and Singapore, and this led to a de facto ceding of colonial interests of the area to France. France herself took an increasingly aggressive policy to strengthen her colonies at Siam's expense while being careful not to conflict with British aims in Asia. Here's a nice little piece on the overall French-Siamese history that led me to speculate that France would have been the most likely Western power to attempt the conquering of Siam:
Thailand's War With Vichy France | History Today
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:18 AM   #13

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I would say France. Given the actual history. With the Bowring Treaty between Great Britain and Siam, many of the economic and legal issues of concern to the British were largely settled in their favor. Consequently, the British turned more to their interests in Malaysia and Singapore, and this led to a de facto ceding of colonial interests of the area to France. France herself took an increasingly aggressive policy to strengthen her colonies at Siam's expense while being careful not to conflict with British aims in Asia. Here's a nice little piece on the overall French-Siamese history that led me to speculate that France would have been the most likely Western power to attempt the conquering of Siam:
Thailand's War With Vichy France | History Today
Intresting article but Germany could have been the sniper on Ebay. Britian agreed not to go into Thailand. Thai forces were too bussy defending Thailand. The German navy could have sent out ships to cripple the French IndoChina navy and then the German navy could have shelled Bangkok. Then Germany could have easely landed troops in Bangkok after the shelling making Thailand surrender
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:27 AM   #14

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Intresting article but Germany could have been the sniper on Ebay. Britian agreed not to go into Thailand. Thai forces were too bussy defending Thailand. The German navy could have sent out ships to cripple the French IndoChina navy and then the German navy could have shelled Bangkok. Then Germany could have easely landed troops in Bangkok after the shelling making Thailand surrender
Ludicrous! How are you going to supply those troops? From German east Africa? A relatively new colony with a tiny German population?
From those few islands that the Germans had?
If Germany attacked anything that's French then the Russians and French would be on Germanys doorstep with millions of troops. Is Thailand worth that?
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Old December 15th, 2012, 10:48 AM   #15

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The emergence of Thailand as a kingdom is quite remarkable. The T'ai - as opposed to Thai, which is a modern political invention - tribes only arrived in SEA in the 13th century. They were initially only slaves and mercenaries earning a living in lands ruled by the Khmers, natives of today's Cambodia. They then usurped some of those Khmer kingdoms and set up the first T'ai kingdoms, Sukothai and Ayutthaya, which was once sacked by the Burmese.

Yep, they did cede provinces to the French and Brits. The states of Kedah, Perlis, Kelantan and Terengganu (now in Malaysia) would have remained part of Thailand today, like Patani, if it weren't for the Brits.

OTOH, practically all the lands of today's Thailand were, until the 11th century, home of the Mon, who today have been largely assimilated, along with other tribes, by the T'ai to form the universal 'Thai' nation.

So, if Siam had been conquered, most likely it would have been a carve-up between the French and the Brits. Although, knowing the Siamese prowess at survivalist realpolitik, such a case would have been rather unlikely.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:23 AM   #16

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Ludicrous! How are you going to supply those troops? From German east Africa? A relatively new colony with a tiny German population?
From those few islands that the Germans had?
If Germany attacked anything that's French then the Russians and French would be on Germanys doorstep with millions of troops. Is Thailand worth that?
Don't forget in the African colonies they would use the locals as troops and you can they could get into the ship and sail accross the Indian ocean. I might have went a little over the top with saying destroying Frances navy I doubt France was using a navy in there screamish with Thailand. I am going to stick with the fact they could have used the navy to shell Bangkok and land troops there. Don't forget Germany also had Austro-Hungary on Germany's side. So Austria could have also helped.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 11:39 AM   #17

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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
The emergence of Thailand as a kingdom is quite remarkable. The T'ai - as opposed to Thai, which is a modern political invention - tribes only arrived in SEA in the 13th century. They were initially only slaves and mercenaries earning a living in lands ruled by the Khmers, natives of today's Cambodia. They then usurped some of those Khmer kingdoms and set up the first T'ai kingdoms, Sukothai and Ayutthaya, which was once sacked by the Burmese.

Yep, they did cede provinces to the French and Brits. The states of Kedah, Perlis, Kelantan and Terengganu (now in Malaysia) would have remained part of Thailand today, like Patani, if it weren't for the Brits.

OTOH, practically all the lands of today's Thailand were, until the 11th century, home of the Mon, who today have been largely assimilated, along with other tribes, by the T'ai to form the universal 'Thai' nation.

So, if Siam had been conquered, most likely it would have been a carve-up between the French and the Brits. Although, knowing the Siamese prowess at survivalist realpolitik, such a case would have been rather unlikely.
That is the value of Mongkut's reforms carried on by his successor. The growing weakness of the Qin Dynasty was not lost on them, either. I think that went a good way towards the Ramas' feeling more comfortable in dealing with the Westerners.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 03:58 PM   #18

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Originally Posted by Emperor Trajan View Post
Intresting article but Germany could have been the sniper on Ebay. Britian agreed not to go into Thailand. Thai forces were too bussy defending Thailand. The German navy could have sent out ships to cripple the French IndoChina navy and then the German navy could have shelled Bangkok. Then Germany could have easely landed troops in Bangkok after the shelling making Thailand surrender
I think you're seriously overestimating German colonial power, and favoring the Germans over the French and British for reasons other than historical facts. That's cool you like Germany, but what you're saying is outside of the realm of plausible history. The Germans, Portuguese and Spanish aren't even realistic options. Remember that one big reason Germany was trying to expand in Europe even during the time of WWI was to cripple the traditional great powers of Britain and France.
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Old December 15th, 2012, 04:32 PM   #19

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Originally Posted by Emperor Trajan View Post
Don't forget in the African colonies they would use the locals as troops and you can they could get into the ship and sail accross the Indian ocean. I might have went a little over the top with saying destroying Frances navy I doubt France was using a navy in there screamish with Thailand. I am going to stick with the fact they could have used the navy to shell Bangkok and land troops there. Don't forget Germany also had Austro-Hungary on Germany's side. So Austria could have also helped.
I could write an entire story on this but the main question is: what period do you have in mind ?
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Old December 15th, 2012, 05:16 PM   #20

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I could write an entire story on this but the main question is: what period do you have in mind ?
Well I am studying Imperialism in school right now and I had seen that Germany,UK,France,Netherlands and United States all had collonies in the west and how Japan and Siam managed to stay out. It never talks about what Siam did so it would not get taken over
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