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Old November 2nd, 2012, 08:46 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by Dreamhunter View Post
Lame excuses. Just admit it.


Lame excuse again.


You read one book, and you're converted.


A fact? Oh yeah, one dished out by your good friend John Baggot Glubb.

Apparently you've never ever held a sword in your life. It's not only about the sheer heft of the sword, or the brute strength of its wielder, but also his skill, speed, agility and deftness. Just like a competent female judoka or karateka, or wushu/taekwondo exponent, could defeat an untrained male musclebound oaf a foot taller and 25 kg heavier.

You should try playing around with one some time. No, not a real sharp one yet. Don't want ya to slice yer own arm or leg off yet. A wooden or bamboo one (like used in Kendo) is enough for you to get some feel of it. Or you could also mess about with a bit of staff fighting, quite many strokes of which are also applicable to sword fighting.

A battle between two armies is a mass fight to be won for the sake of the kingdom or the tribe. How you fight and win is of no import. Ambushes, feints, feigned charges, feigned retreats etc. are all part of intelligent battle skill and strategy. One doesn't simply fight for the sake of fighting. One fights an intelligent fight to win. There's no point fighting a glamorous, glorious fight only to lose your territory or throne.

A one on one fight between two individuals is a completely different kettle of fish altogether. You fight for honour, and you have some rules to be followed by both sides. But if both sides agree, then you can also decide to have a no-holds-barred duel to the death. Like the gladiators are supposed to have done.


Now you're gonna drown. The Oghuz conquered Constantinople, the most strongly defended fortress city of that time. And they had no siege engines? Wow. They must've been the most amazing army on earth of all time. Maybe they could fly too.


1. There was no lame excuse as I merely pointed out reasons for India not expanding was lack of quality horses, elephants not operational beyond Peshawar etc.

Persians as I have said are no more and what remains before us is a defeated , enslaved nation with a religion of crude and primitive Arabs which it despised initially but was hardly able to resist the Arab rabble.


2. Your funny comments remind me of a film Red Cliff in which a general from Sun Cheng mocked Liu bi and was given a correct reply that how many wars did he win himself.

the Liu Bi man asked him so that he could laugh also.


so tell me Bhumiputra Malay, how many battles your country has won?

tell me how there was no cities, no coins , no literature , no art in Malaysia before we came and after giving such things we left.

when Malayas started Piracy, they were heavily punished by Rajendra Chola who from a distance of 2,000 miles crushed them.

and finally when Arabs came, they wiped out entire culture which again shows that whatever Malays had was foreign.

earlier, it was Indian culture , now it is Arab one dominating so a nation without any victory, any culture of its own.


Please fill the details and tell me something more so that I can also laugh.
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 08:48 AM   #1022
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Old November 2nd, 2012, 10:09 AM   #1023

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And that's the thing, all the European factionalism and political division works beautifully on behalf of a Mongol conqueror who is religiously, which translates as politically, acceptable to the locals. He can divide and conquer with ease to his hearts content. Europe will be his oyster. Provided the entire point of the exercise isn't just to humiliate Europeans just generally for some reason, he might even be amount of a massivley positive force for the general good in the place, should he set his mind to using the power he brings with him, and the power he could pick up. Emperor Börek the Great, Good, Just and Generous is within his potential grasp here. Which might be a welcome change from the otherwise crappy assessments of what the Mongols brought elsewhere...
Well Larrey, looks like you just handed the "Pro-Mongol" faction the blueprints for the nuclear bomb . Based on your extensive knowledge of European medieval history, a Christian who conquers Europe would be considered as acceptable, since the Europeans did not judge people by their ethnicity, but rather by their religion. The legend of Prester John is a perfect example of this attitude.
Now, the Mongols did in fact in several occasions in history convert to local religion in order to appease the populace. An example of this were the Chagatai khans who turned to Islam. The Mongols knew that rulers who defied the local religion were bound not to last long. They had encountered an example of this in Kuchlug, whose empire, when invaded, basically joined the Mongols in overthrowing its religiously oppressive master.
What would stop a khan from converting to Christianty in a bid to conquer Europe. The answer is: nothing. In fact, the Mongols were already more than accustomed to Christianity; there are plenty of examples of powerful Christian Mongols, namely, Wang Khan, depicted in this Medieval European picture here as Prester John:
Click the image to open in full size.
...and the Khatun Sorghaghtani Beki, among the most powerful and influental women in world history.
Also, Ogedai Khan was known to be very favourable towards Christianity, perhaps due to high Nestorian Christian Kerait influence on the Mongols.
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Old November 3rd, 2012, 07:57 AM   #1024

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so tell me Bhumiputra Malay, how many battles your country has won?
For our start, our newly risen Melaka (Malacca) kingdom beat off 2 invasions by then mighty Ayutthaya, one by land, the other by sea. But they conspired with the Portuguese to bring Melaka down. Melaka held sway over the region around the straits of Malacca for over a century. But that was the 15th - 16th century.

We had kingdoms, part of the Langkasuka federation, since the early centuries AD, which were cognate with ancient Funan and ancient Champa. Small kingdoms, but what else can you expect with our small populations.

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Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
tell me how there was no cities, no coins , no literature , no art in Malaysia before we came and after giving such things we left.
Says who? You have such delusions of grandeur.

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Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
when Malayas started Piracy, they were heavily punished by Rajendra Chola who from a distance of 2,000 miles crushed them.
Every tribe, every nation, has engaged in piracy at one time or other in their history. Big deal? Greeks, Vikings, Spaniards, Brits, Japanese, Thais, Javanese, Indians, have all done it. Even your good friend Rajendra Chola, who disguised pirate raids on peaceful cities as military invasions and trumpeted them as such.

BTW, Rajendra could only go eastward bullying weaker kingdoms because he didn't have much room to go northward other than Bengal, because Mahmud al-Ghaznavi, who was a much worthier opponent to him than us in SEA, had already made the place his personal playground.

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Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
and finally when Arabs came, they wiped out entire culture which again shows that whatever Malays had was foreign.
FYI, we adopted their faith through trading and commercial interactions, not as a result of any military conquest. Maybe we had grown tired of stuff originating from India. Oh, we have no problem with foreign things, as long as we can tailor it to our own local requirements.

Europeans also adopted a faith originating from West Asia. It's no big deal. That did not mean that Europeans became West Asians then, did it?

BTW, all things Indian are all ultimately of foreign origin too. FYI, the goddesses in your pantheon came ultimately from our ancient sailors who ventured to your continent, who introduced the idea of goddesses from our matriarchal culture. Prior to that, a long long time ago, so long it'd be beyond your imagination, yours was an all male pantheon. If you wanna laugh at that, be my guest.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 3rd, 2012 at 08:07 AM.
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Old November 3rd, 2012, 11:23 AM   #1025
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For our start, our newly risen Melaka (Malacca) kingdom beat off 2 invasions by then mighty Ayutthaya, one by land, the other by sea. But they conspired with the Portuguese to bring Melaka down. Melaka held sway over the region around the straits of Malacca for over a century. But that was the 15th - 16th century.

We had kingdoms, part of the Langkasuka federation, since the early centuries AD, which were cognate with ancient Funan and ancient Champa. Small kingdoms, but what else can you expect with our small populations.


Says who? You have such delusions of grandeur.


Every tribe, every nation, has engaged in piracy at one time or other in their history. Big deal? Greeks, Vikings, Spaniards, Brits, Japanese, Thais, Javanese, Indians, have all done it. Even your good friend Rajendra Chola, who disguised pirate raids on peaceful cities as military invasions and trumpeted them as such.

BTW, Rajendra could only go eastward bullying weaker kingdoms because he didn't have much room to go northward other than Bengal, because Mahmud al-Ghaznavi, who was a much worthier opponent to him than us in SEA, had already made the place his personal playground.


FYI, we adopted their faith through trading and commercial interactions, not as a result of any military conquest. Maybe we had grown tired of stuff originating from India. Oh, we have no problem with foreign things, as long as we can tailor it to our own local requirements.

Europeans also adopted a faith originating from West Asia. It's no big deal. That did not mean that Europeans became West Asians then, did it?

BTW, all things Indian are all ultimately of foreign origin too. FYI, the goddesses in your pantheon came ultimately from our ancient sailors who ventured to your continent, who introduced the idea of goddesses from our matriarchal culture. Prior to that, a long long time ago, so long it'd be beyond your imagination, yours was an all male pantheon. If you wanna laugh at that, be my guest.

1. It was Malayas who were pirates and Rajendra Chola merely punished them.
Rajendra sent many delegations to Song and his envoys were harassed by malay pirates which compelled him to attack Sri Vijay( no malay name actually).

2. I have no delusions of grandeur and I merely asked for cities, literature, coins etc. in malaysia before Indian sailors came to malay shores that is before christian era.

let me tell you I am not happy to write these things but it was you who mocked Indians first and since Malayas follow Qisas, I am not uncivilized in doing this.

3. All those ancient kingdoms are attested by inscriptions which are in Indian languages and indian pallava grantha script not any indigenous malay script. sorry you are wrong here.


4. Well, I never said you were not free to adopt any culture but again sorry what you call 'malay adaptation to foreign elements' is nothing but imitating and rather poor imitating which presents the difference.

if you copy sophisticated designs, you are bound to not copy it properly and to boast, one can say that it was one's genius to do that.

5. Europe adopted west Asian faith but from beginning it dominated Christian landscape. Bible is written in Greek and not Aramaic, there are more European arts on Jesus than Syrian and etc.

I fail to find any such scenario in Malay history.

6. Could you elaborate on that mother goddess thing a bit as all that sounded like African men cheering that whole human race came from them.

7. I accept your invitation to laugh together but before this tell me what is the first work in Malay langauge and how old is it?

I bet we will have a great laughter session.
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Old November 4th, 2012, 05:06 AM   #1026

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1. It was Malayas who were pirates and Rajendra Chola merely punished them.
Rajendra sent many delegations to Song and his envoys were harassed by malay pirates which compelled him to attack Sri Vijay( no malay name actually).
Pirates were pirates. They exist among any tribe or nation. But they had nothing to do with Palembang Sri Vijaya or any other member kingdoms of the Sri Vijayan Federation, even if they were of Malay ethnicity. Japanese pirates were a scourge in ancient Korean waters at one time. But the Koreans who were quite strong at the time never attacked a peaceful Japanese city in retaliation.

Rajendra was just spoiling for a fight, as well as having an eye on dominating the Straits of Malacca - at that time likely called Selat Saberkas, i.e. so called Sinus Sabaricus - a lucrative maritime trading route straddling the shores of another kingdom-empire.

Rajendra's father Raja Raja was on friendly terms with the Sri Vijayan maharaja Chulamani Varma Deva and his successor Mara Vijaya Thunga Varman. Chulamani had in fact sponsored the building of a temple in Nagapattinam, completed during the tenure of his son Mara Vijaya, and named Chulamani Maha Vihara after his name. But, out of sheer uncontrollable greed, and sensing a weakening Sri Vijayan empire, Rajendra just suddenly turned on a former ally.

Since Rajendra did not dare face Mahmud al-Ghaznavi in northern India, he turned in another direction to vent his anger and frustrations. And since he himself was a pirate-marauder masquerading as a glorious conqueror, he used so called anti-piracy measures as an excuse to raid, pillage and plunder peaceful member kingdoms of the Sri Vijayan Federation, which by that time was already an empire in decline and much less of an opponent to him than Mahmud and his Ghaznians would have been.

Quote:
Originally Posted by avantivarman View Post
2. I have no delusions of grandeur and I merely asked for cities, literature, coins etc. in malaysia before Indian sailors came to malay shores that is before christian era.

let me tell you I am not happy to write these things but it was you who mocked Indians first and since Malayas follow Qisas, I am not uncivilized in doing this.
Ancient Malay - or Malayo-Polynesian or Austronesian if you like - sailors reached the Indian subcontinent well before Indians started sailing into the deep oceans. Ancient Indians, sorry to say, were Johnny-come-lately to the deep sea sailing scene. They had something against the sea. They considered sailing as an undesirable activity. To them the sea was something 'dirty' and to be avoided.

I mocked Indians? When? You have to be able to differentiate mocking from neutral observation, as well as light humoured ribbing or leg pulling. After all, this is a discussion forum, and anyone is free to make his own observations. You take things too seriously, I think.

Last edited by Dreamhunter; November 4th, 2012 at 06:30 AM.
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Old November 4th, 2012, 08:26 AM   #1027

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[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Temujin View Post
Well Larrey, looks like you just handed the "Pro-Mongol" faction the blueprints for the nuclear bomb . Based on your extensive knowledge of European medieval history, a Christian who conquers Europe would be considered as acceptable, since the Europeans did not judge people by their ethnicity, but rather by their religion. The legend of Prester John is a perfect example of this attitude.
Now, the Mongols did in fact in several occasions in history convert to local religion in order to appease the populace. An example of this were the Chagatai khans who turned to Islam. The Mongols knew that rulers who defied the local religion were bound not to last long. They had encountered an example of this in Kuchlug, whose empire, when invaded, basically joined the Mongols in overthrowing its religiously oppressive master.
What would stop a khan from converting to Christianty in a bid to conquer Europe. The answer is: nothing. In fact, the Mongols were already more than accustomed to Christianity; there are plenty of examples of powerful Christian Mongols, namely, Wang Khan, depicted in this Medieval European picture here as Prester John:
Click the image to open in full size.
...and the Khatun Sorghaghtani Beki, among the most powerful and influental women in world history.
Also, Ogedai Khan was known to be very favourable towards Christianity, perhaps due to high Nestorian Christian Kerait influence on the Mongols.[/quote
]
Timmujhin was, himself, once allied with a very powerful Christian Mongol Khan. One who enabled Timmujhin to survive in very hard times and thus become strong enough to go on to becoming the Genghis Khan. Unfortunately this same Christian Khan was influenced into betraying Timmujhin by Jamulka (of the Merkits) along with the Khans' very own stupid son. Jamulka ended up betraying this Christian Khan as well. According to the Chinese mini-series titled Genghis Khan, this Christian Khan was murdered by mongols who did not believe he was who he said he was. Ignorance is not bliss. This particular Khan could very well be the "Prestor John" of legend (although some sources placed this mythical Christian King in Africa as well as Asia). So, just to add to your point...there were Christian kingdoms deep into Central Asia and one of them was actually a Mongol one.

Last edited by Zarin; November 4th, 2012 at 08:35 AM.
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Old November 7th, 2012, 09:54 AM   #1028

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Yes, this Christian khan was called Wang Khan, although he also known as Ong Khan and Toghrul.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 03:25 AM   #1029
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No more land to conquer.

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Modern day Mongol herders

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Mongolian ger (yurt)

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Last edited by steppeking; November 10th, 2012 at 03:46 AM.
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Old November 10th, 2012, 03:55 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Temujin View Post
Well Larrey, looks like you just handed the "Pro-Mongol" faction the blueprints for the nuclear bomb . Based on your extensive knowledge of European medieval history, a Christian who conquers Europe would be considered as acceptable, since the Europeans did not judge people by their ethnicity, but rather by their religion. The legend of Prester John is a perfect example of this attitude.
Now, the Mongols did in fact in several occasions in history convert to local religion in order to appease the populace. An example of this were the Chagatai khans who turned to Islam. The Mongols knew that rulers who defied the local religion were bound not to last long. They had encountered an example of this in Kuchlug, whose empire, when invaded, basically joined the Mongols in overthrowing its religiously oppressive master.
What would stop a khan from converting to Christianty in a bid to conquer Europe. The answer is: nothing. In fact, the Mongols were already more than accustomed to Christianity; there are plenty of examples of powerful Christian Mongols, namely, Wang Khan, depicted in this Medieval European picture here as Prester John:
Click the image to open in full size.
...and the Khatun Sorghaghtani Beki, among the most powerful and influental women in world history.
Also, Ogedai Khan was known to be very favourable towards Christianity, perhaps due to high Nestorian Christian Kerait influence on the Mongols.
This is totally unique...
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