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Old July 9th, 2009, 08:07 AM   #11

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


I must agree with the view that European Castles would not cause the Mongols too much grief. They overcame fortifications and defences that make anything Europe at the time had to offer look puny by comparison.

And I disagree with those who say that Mongolian Conquest would have taken us back to the Stone Age. Quite the opposite - it would have advanced us considerably.

Sure, the Mongols were very, very, very destructive when they're coming to conquer you. That's called scare tactics, and it worked very, very, very well in conquering an Empire. But once the stage of conquest is over and you're under direct rule of the Mongols, then life becomes much, much better than it was before. A great system of laws, trade all over the Empire, meritocracy, freedom of religion, and best of all, security. It was said that a virgin could walk from one end of the Mongol Empire to the other with a pot of gold on her head and she would not be bothered. Obviously this is an exageration, but still, it makes a very strong point. All of these things I think would have done feudal Europe a lot of good.

And the Mongols were anything but illiterate savages. Even under Genghis Khan there were a number of Mongols who cared deeply about writings and history. But the Mongols can really claim to be a cultural force under the leadership of Kublai Khan, the greatest Mongol after Genghis (his grandfather).

Russia has been cited as an example of the negative effects of Mongol rule. I'd point out that Russia never really came under direct rule of the Mongols - it was more of a vassal state. To get a better idea of what having the Mongols in charge would be like, far better to look at China, the general Far Eastern area, Mongolia itself. In these places Mongol rule was the stimulus for signifigant advances in technology, cultural leaps, better trade, life, etc, etc.

Mongols all the way!
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Old July 9th, 2009, 10:33 AM   #12
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


"Castles in Europe? The Mongolians toppled the largest fortifications in China and in Central Asia/Arabia. They had the biggest siege weapons in the world."-jebusrocks-

"The Mongols learned from their earlier mistakes. When facing heavy knights Mongols would stay on the move to keep one step ahead then ambush them unexpectedly, using their speed, range and numbers to counter the knights' armor." - Nick-

Well, in the innitial invasion in 1241 they spent almost a full year without gaining access to over 80 fortified positions ( castles, walled towns, monastries).

As I said before, when the Mongols returned to Hungary in 1286 they were defeated. It was the Hungarians who learned from their previous mistakes and not the Mongols. The reason for the Hungarian victory is that they built hundreds more fortifications which frustrated the Mongol advance and employed more heavy knights, which used in an ambush situation agains the mongols were very effective in cutting down cavelry archers.

From this my case of the Western European with their huge amount of castles, manpower, heavy knights would surely have caused the Mongols serious trouble. My opinion is that they would have defeated the Mongols if they could adapt to the Mongols tactics in time and implement an effective strategy.

Let me also add that the Mongols also conducted attacks against the Lituanians which were repelled in 1259, 1275 and 1277.

Also in Spain 1212 the christians won the decisive battle of Las Navas de Tolosa and had quite a battle hardened and well equipped army. If a Spanish and French army was raised to come to the help of the HRM, I have no doubt that the mongols would have been defeated.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 11:56 AM   #13

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


From what I know the Mongols even if they can conquer West Europe, I still dont think they would have. Simple conquering West Europe is not profitable for the Mongols when u compare WE stand of civilization and riches (knowledge and resources) at that time to the more advanced Middle East or the the 3 Kingdoms of China. The terrain would cause them a little headache too. Actually WE didnt have to pay the blood price like Middle East and China when they profited from Mongolian achievements
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Old July 9th, 2009, 01:27 PM   #14

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Divus, Mongolians mostly destroyed the Great Seljuq Empire, which was more civilized then the Ottoman empire, which caused great problems to eastern countrys, by holding there development for ages to come.. even today countrys in east Europe cant be like the westerns because of the ottomans, who destroyed churches, executed aristocracy and intelligent people, who mass murdered people, by burning citys and killing milions and milions of people.

If there is any turk in the forum im sure that he would agree that the Seljuqs are far more civilised then the Ottomans.
And mongolians, okay scare tactic i understand that, but by burning librarys your destorying history, education, information etc.
Life maybe was good for the mongolians but not for the conqured nations.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 10:54 PM   #15

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Quote:
Life maybe was good for the mongolians but not for the conqured nations.
Did you not read what I wrote?
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Old July 10th, 2009, 12:02 AM   #16
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sturm View Post
Divus, Mongolians mostly destroyed the Great Seljuq Empire, which was more civilized then the Ottoman empire, which caused great problems to eastern countrys, by holding there development for ages to come.. even today countrys in east Europe cant be like the westerns because of the ottomans, who destroyed churches, executed aristocracy and intelligent people, who mass murdered people, by burning citys and killing milions and milions of people.

If there is any turk in the forum im sure that he would agree that the Seljuqs are far more civilised then the Ottomans.
And mongolians, okay scare tactic i understand that, but by burning librarys your destorying history, education, information etc.
Life maybe was good for the mongolians but not for the conqured nations.
You obviously have the wrong idea about the Mongolians. Yes the Mongolians would destroy the history of various regions; however they encouraged education and learning. In fact, it was during the time of the Mongolians that the world flourished under a new age, Freedom of Religion, Education, etc. etc. and the security given to virtually anyone in the Empire. Yes initially, for the first few decades of conquest, things might not look so well; but afterwards, most countries like the Yuan, Illkhanate, and the Golden Horde thrived

Quote:
Well, in the innitial invasion in 1241 they spent almost a full year without gaining access to over 80 fortified positions ( castles, walled towns, monastries).
Not quite true; the Mongolians advanced all the way into Krakow and took town at least half a dozen castles in the process; all in less than half a year. The campaigns left Hungary with devastating civilian casualties; at least forty percent of the total population.

Quote:
From this my case of the Western European with their huge amount of castles, manpower, heavy knights would surely have caused the Mongols serious trouble. My opinion is that they would have defeated the Mongols if they could adapt to the Mongols tactics in time and implement an effective strategy.
Ur comparing the population of Western Europe to the Mongolian empires? The castles? In northern China alone the population was a hundred million; all subjects to the Mongolian empire. The population of France even in the Fifteenth century numbered less than twenty million.
How would the heavy knights cause the Mongolians any trouble? The Mongolians excelled at heavy infantry/heavy cavalry armies; just look at the Jerchens and the Khawzis! How r u gonna implement Mongolian tactics with heavy knights? The Mongolian lancers would merely pierce every knight coming their way, IF they survived the trek across anyhow! The fact and matter is this. Prior to the English invasion of France, the French and Germans heavily depended on their infantry and heavy cavalry to win battles; Their ideals for chivalry destroyed any type of mass conscription that would be of any use. To add to this, none of these countries used range weapons other than the merc. crossbows (whom, though great, will never match Chinese crossbows); leaving all European armies in silver platter to a full-scale Mongolian invasion. In Northern China, there were at least several hundred fortifications spread throughout the region; and what is more, the entire steppe was blocked off by the Great Wall of China!




Quote:
Let me also add that the Mongols also conducted attacks against the Lituanians which were repelled in 1259, 1275 and 1277.

As I said before, when the Mongols returned to Hungary in 1286 they were defeated. It was the Hungarians who learned from their previous mistakes and not the Mongols. The reason for the Hungarian victory is that they built hundreds more fortifications which frustrated the Mongol advance and employed more heavy knights, which used in an ambush situation agains the mongols were very effective in cutting down cavelry archers.
Correction... Mongols RAIDED Lithuania. Also.. after Ogodei's death, no one ever bothered even sending a real force to Europe. It should also be noted that the Mongolians never actually sent a full-scale invasion to Europe. The largest invasion included only two generals. At the same time, the Mongolians were sending expeditions in the hundreds of thousands to other locations. After Subudei had to return and failed to bring in any loot, the Mongols dismissed the idea of another massive expedition immediately.
Also, later invasions of Hungary were conducted by a faction within the Mongolian Empire, and not the Mongolian Empire itself.


Quote:
Also in Spain 1212 the christians won the decisive battle of Las Navas de Tolosa and had quite a battle hardened and well equipped army. If a Spanish and French army was raised to come to the help of the HRM, I have no doubt that the mongols would have been defeated.
Mongolian soldiers fought from an early age and basically lived riding a horse. A full Mongolian invasion would include at least four hundred thousand MONGOLIAN soldiers, plus, if they really wanted, two million from China, several tens of thousands from Burma, Korea, Central Asia, and Arabia. In fact, it is believed that, if needed, the Mongolians could have amassed a veteran army of nearly six million men (if you included levies, it would have been more than twenty million), of which 400 000 Mongolians would partake the battle with a large amount of Chinese professional soldiers and so on. It would include one million cavalry, three million infantry from China alone (land based soldiers to be exact, so including ranged armies) and many more... These would be veteran soldiers led by decent generals from across Mongolia and even China.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 10:47 AM   #17
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


hmm, there is no getting around the issue that while the Mongols overcame the fortifications in Poland and Romania, they failed in their efforts against the Hungarian fortifications.. ( 80 in total)

And as I said in their return they were defeated. There is no getting around these facts.

If they faced the same difficulty in the HRM as they did in Hungary then they would be in serious trouble.

When I talk of a Mongol invasion of western europe I am referring to the 60 to 80 thousand troops they had gathered on the hungarian plain in 1241.. I don't know if they would have sent re-enforcements for an attack on the west, but if they did, then this would obviously swing the advantage their direction.
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Old July 10th, 2009, 01:56 PM   #18

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


I agree with Jebusrocks.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 05:40 AM   #19
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Just to add some more information..


"In the mid-1280s Nogai Khan led an invasion of Hungary alongside with [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talabuga"]Talabuga[/ame]. Nogai lead an army that ravaged [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transylvania"]Transylvania[/ame] with success, where cities like [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reghin"]Reghin[/ame],Brassó- Braşov and Beszterce-Bistriţa were plundered and ravaged. However Talabuga, who led the main army in Northern Hungary, was stopped by the heavy snow of the [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains"]Carpathians[/ame] and the invading force was defeated near Pest by the royal army of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladislaus_IV_of_Hungary"]Ladislaus IV[/ame] and ambushed by the Székely in the return. As with later invasions, it was repelled handily, the Mongols losing much of their invading force. The outcome could not have contrasted more sharply with the 1241 invasion, mostly due to the reforms of Béla IV, which included advances in military tactics and, most importantly, the widespread building of [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castles"]stone castles[/ame], both in response to the crushing defeat of the Hungarian Kingdom in 1241." -Wikipedia-


If what I quoted is factually correct, then it raises some serious questions about mongol invincibility.
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Old July 11th, 2009, 06:03 AM   #20

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?

Yes, next.
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