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Old July 8th, 2009, 11:08 AM   #1
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Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


The common answer to this would have been yes. That the west european powers were fragmented and would not have been able to cope with the superior tactics of the mongols.

However, I would not be so sure about the outcome of a possible mongol invasion into the Holy Roman Empire and France in 1241.

If we look at the mongol invasion and destruction in Hungary in 1241 they annihilated the hungarian army and ravaged the hungarian countryside.The hungarian army was appallingly unprepared and tactically naive against the mongol. However, over 80 fortified positions in the Hungarian Kingdom did hold out against the mongols, this despite the mongols employing chinese artilary and sieging techniques.

In a following Mongol invasion/raid in the 1270s we can see that it was easily beaten as the hungarians had built hundreds more fortifications and employed a larger ratio of heavy knights.

With this in mind, I think that the mongols in 1241 if they launched an invasion of the holy roman empire would be up against a massive array for castles and other fortifications which in combination with heavy knights of which the west europeans had in abundance would have surely frustrated the mongol invasion considerably. They would have been very vunerable to ambushed from behind and from the flank of recently conquered territory if they are unable to secure enough fortifications ( castles, towns etc)

In addition it is claimed that western europe was ill prepared and disjointed. However a similar situation was present with the Magyar raids into the Holy Roman Empire centuries previous. But once the threat become clear the germans princes united behind their emperor Otto and defeated the Magyars.

In my opinion the mongols would be forced to withdraw in a similar manner in which Atila the hun and this army had to do when they were defeated in France in 411. I could see the mongol army overreaching itself and being worn down in western europe. They would be lucky to escape if they advanced too far, they could face annihilation if the French King Louis ix mustered his army in sufficient force.
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Old July 8th, 2009, 02:29 PM   #2
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Just to add a few points,

After the Mongols retreated from Hungary 1242, King Béla ordered the construction of hundreds of stone/brick castles and fortifications, meant to be defense against a possible second Mongol invasion.

Mongols returned to Hungary in 1286, but the new built stone-castle systems and new tactics (using higher ratio of heavy knights) stopped them. The invading Mongol force was defeated near the capital Pest by the hungarian army
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Old July 8th, 2009, 03:14 PM   #3

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


If mongolians did conquered Western Europe, we will be in the stone age right now. And i will be banging two stones against each another right now
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Old July 8th, 2009, 03:18 PM   #4
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Chances are the Mongols would simply go around the castles and overrun the surrounding countryside. Once the nation was conquered they could turn their attention on the aristos, either by besieging them and starving them out or storming the castle.
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Old July 8th, 2009, 05:18 PM   #5
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


"If mongolians did conquered Western Europe, we will be in the stone age right now" - Sturm-

Well, maybe not quite the stone age, as most Russia was conquered by the mongols.. but it would certainly have retarded our development in a major way.


"Chances are the Mongols would simply go around the castles and overrun the surrounding countryside. Once the nation was conquered they could turn their attention on the aristos, either by besieging them and starving them out or storming the castle." -Nick-

That would work if the number of fortifications were limited as they were in eastern europe at the time of the innitial invasion. However as we have seen from hungary when extensve fortifications were built and more heavy knights were employed the mongols were easily defeated.

At the time of the innitial success of the mongols in eastern europe the Holy Roman Empire and France was awash with castles and other fortifications, also they had much better armoured knights and other soliders.

My bet is the mongols would advance avoiding the major fortifications but would suffer from attacks in the form of abushes or also being surprised attcked by knights as they lay siege to castles or towns. A mongol force would be very vunerable while encamped outside a town for being attacked by an army of heavy knights.

You must also remember that King Louis ix of france was quite a capable leader who would probabaly send a massive army into the holy roman empire to help fight the mongols. This in combination with the many castles of Germany and the high amount of heavy knights would surely cause the Mongol invaders serious problems.

Last edited by Celticguy; July 8th, 2009 at 05:49 PM.
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Old July 8th, 2009, 05:58 PM   #6
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


The Mongols learned from their earlier mistakes. When facing heavy knights Mongols would stay on the move to keep one step ahead then ambush them unexpectedly, using their speed, range and numbers to counter the knights' armor.
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Old July 8th, 2009, 06:05 PM   #7
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by sturm View Post
If mongolians did conquered Western Europe, we will be in the stone age right now. And i will be banging two stones against each another right now
Nah; we'd all just be illiterate

France and the HRE depended heavily on their knights; hence yes they'd be defeated in battle. There is just no way a heavily armed knight would be able to take down horse archers,.

Quote:
That would work if the number of fortifications were limited as they were in eastern europe at the time of the innitial invasion. However as we have seen from hungary when extensve fortifications were built and more heavy knights were employed the mongols were easily defeated.

At the time of the innitial success of the mongols in eastern europe the Holy Roman Empire and France was awash with castles and other fortifications, also they had much better armoured knights and other soliders.

My bet is the mongols would advance avoiding the major fortifications but would suffer from attacks in the form of abushes or also being surprised attcked by knights as they lay siege to castles or towns. A mongol force would be very vunerable while encamped outside a town for being attacked by an army of heavy knights.

You must also remember that King Louis ix of france was quite a capable leader who would probabaly send a massive army into the holy roman empire to help fight the mongols. This in combination with the many castles of Germany and the high amount of heavy knights would surely cause the Mongol invaders serious problems.
Castles in Europe? The Mongolians toppled the largest fortifications in China and in Central Asia/Arabia. They had the biggest siege weapons in the world.

It's quite simple. The Mongolians would, at first, never directly attack the castles; instead they'd raid the countryside, kill all the men, and let the women, elderly, and the children to go into castles. All the castles will soon be overpopulated and hence supplies would be in more demand. Than they'd began bombarding the castles with corpses ridden with diseases (like Russia) and due to the overpopulation of these castles, the dieseas will spread like it did during the Black Plague; and ultimately the castles would fall.
Even if the HRE managed to repel the Mongolians, they would look at civil casualties comparable to Germany's losses during the Thirty Years' War (33% of the entire population)
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Old July 8th, 2009, 08:49 PM   #8
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jebusrocks View Post

It's quite simple. The Mongolians would, at first, never directly attack the castles; instead they'd raid the countryside, kill all the men, and let the women, elderly, and the children to go into castles. All the castles will soon be overpopulated and hence supplies would be in more demand. Than they'd began bombarding the castles with corpses ridden with diseases (like Russia) and due to the overpopulation of these castles, the dieseas will spread like it did during the Black Plague; and ultimately the castles would fall.
Even if the HRE managed to repel the Mongolians, they would look at civil casualties comparable to Germany's losses during the Thirty Years' War (33% of the entire population)
Yeah, Mongol usually did this tactic when they couldn't pass the wall of good castle.

Or, they capture the citizens of the elder, young, and woman, and take advantage of the captives charging against the wall, which the castle mostly could not respond effectively because those soldiers in the castles are killing their father, mother and grandparents or sons or daughters.

Mongol is exploiting this tactic and when castle is not strenously resisting, they swiftly use their own soldiers to cross the wall and break the door, and the game over.

Sometimes, when this tactic is not even working well, they pretended withdrawing its forces and going back to its base, but it was only traps that attract enemy into field, in which case probably no European forces can not resist.

And if this does not even work well, they just ravage all things in that country and just withdraw from the country, in which case the country win the war, but nothing remaining well cause social problems.
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Old July 8th, 2009, 09:00 PM   #9
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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Celticguy View Post
"If mongolians did conquered Western EuropeThat would work if the number of fortifications were limited as they were in eastern europe at the time of the innitial invasion. However as we have seen from hungary when extensve fortifications were built and more heavy knights were employed the mongols were easily defeated.

At the time of the innitial success of the mongols in eastern europe the Holy Roman Empire and France was awash with castles and other fortifications, also they had much better armoured knights and other soliders.

My bet is the mongols would advance avoiding the major fortifications but would suffer from attacks in the form of abushes or also being surprised attcked by knights as they lay siege to castles or towns. A mongol force would be very vunerable while encamped outside a town for being attacked by an army of heavy knights.
Well, usually heavy armored knight was not really effective forces against light armored knight(=mongols).
Mongol easily defeated heavy armored knight.
In military, the knight is only effective when it has high mobility. But since they are wearing too much weight, their mobility could not be advantage for them when they are fighting light armored knight, who could deploy high mobility.

By mobility, they can crush enemy from flank side in effective speed.
And even the heavy knight has good armored, the armor can not protect them from sword in close distance.

It is more like T-34 of Soviet versus King Tiger of Germany tanks in the WW2, where T-34 absolutely won over Germany. T-34 was very weak armor but had very fast speed, wherease Tiger had the best artillery and the best armor.

T-34 could not directly destory Tiger in the front side due to Tiger's heavy armor in front side, but T-34 moves into flank side and fires the artillery, and then destroy Tiger so easily from peripheral parts of Tiger tanks, during which the Germans failed to defend its flank side effectively due to slow speed.

Most of tank to tank battle in the WW2 between Soviet and Germany were always that Soviet swiftly penetrated Germans from flank side and Germans had no idea where T-34 is coming from.

Mongols usually deployed this mobility tactic.
Han Chinese was always using "heavy armored knight in Asia," but they soon figured out "heavy armored knight," was nothing but costing budget and slow pigs in the battlefield against nomadic people, who were ascendents of Mongolia.
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Old July 9th, 2009, 01:14 AM   #10

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Re: Would the Mongols have conquered western Europe?


Mongolians didnt care for education, or books, history etc.
How many library did they burn, how many books did they destroyed? How many monuments did they sack, looted, or burned?
Thats why i said they would have get us bad in the stone age
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