Persians win the battle of Marathon - Historum

**Rasta** · August 31st, 2009, 08:47 AM

Hello. I am planning on writing a short story that exists in an alternate dimension of reality. In this reality, history may have taken alternate probable paths that did not happen in our history. One area I thought of exploring would be the implications of the Persian Empire if they had defeated the Greeks at Marathon.

What kind of impact would this have had on recorded history? What kind of possible implications would this have had on culture, religion, ect?

**Belisarius** · August 31st, 2009, 08:54 AM

One for the Speculative History forum methinks. Welcome to the Forum Rasta

**Rasta** · August 31st, 2009, 09:18 AM

Ah, cheers. Thank you.

Fluffybunny · August 31st, 2009, 09:52 AM

The battle of Marathon, 490 BC, was an Athenian victory. Even if the Persian had defeated the Athenian army (which was not at full strength), then they would still have to deal with the rest of those pesky Greek polis. However, Persia getting a foot-hold so early (relative to future events that happened; the second invasion did not take place for another 10 years) and so close to the heart of Greece surely would have mixed things up. You would have to look into the relations between the Greek cities. Would Sparta have intervened as fast as they did at Thermopylae?

What would NOT have happened by then would be:

1) Egypt revolting from Persia in 486 BC, which pushed back Darius' planned second invasion of Greece. What would have happened if Egypt revolted whilst Persia was undertaking a full campaign in Greece?
2) the discovery of silver at Laurium in 483 BC which Themistocles cleverly used to fund a navy which would later defeat Persia's. Would Athens have been able to defend herself against the Persian navy before that?
3) With a foot-hold to the south, Persia would not have marched through the north as they did in 480 BC. So, as a result, would Macedonia and Thessaly, for example, have fought with the other Greeks? Thessaly had only switched sides after being abandoned by Athens at Tempe in 480.

Obviously there is more to it that what I have written above, but I hope this helps.

**Rasta** · August 31st, 2009, 10:47 AM

Thanks for the reply. Thoes are great points to consider. I think it might help to explain what I am going to be writing. The actual story is going to be taking place in the future at 2459 ACE. At this point in time the whole Earth is united under a single democratic government that displaced a single dictatorship government a couple centuries (about 2000 ACE) in the past through revolution.

I wanted to make a history which is vastly different, but at the same time based on plausible events. So I need somebody to take over the entier world at some point, but is probably not plausible until war was industrialized. So my idea was to have Persia defeat the Greeks and brainstorm the cultural implications especially on Western civilization. Perhaps Persia would have continued to dominate all of what would become the Roman Empire.

Some thoughts off the top of my head.
1. An increase in the influence of Zoroastrianism philosophy on western civilization. Which would then necessitate a reduction in the influence of Greek philosophy and culture.
2. If the Romans never took power, Christianity would not be the powerhouse it is today, and Islam may not even exist.
3. Persia was tolerant of other faiths and many people would still retain their indigenous faiths, although they might be altered over time through cultural interaction.

Any other ideas? Holes in this idea?

DesertPilot · August 31st, 2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rasta

Thanks for the reply. Thoes are great points to consider. I think it might help to explain what I am going to be writing. The actual story is going to be taking place in the future at 2459 ACE. At this point in time the whole Earth is united under a single democratic government that displaced a single dictatorship government a couple centuries (about 2000 ACE) in the past through revolution.

I wanted to make a history which is vastly different, but at the same time based on plausible events. So I need somebody to take over the entier world at some point, but is probably not plausible until war was industrialized. So my idea was to have Persia defeat the Greeks and brainstorm the cultural implications especially on Western civilization. Perhaps Persia would have continued to dominate all of what would become the Roman Empire.

Some thoughts off the top of my head.
1. An increase in the influence of Zoroastrianism philosophy on western civilization. Which would then necessitate a reduction in the influence of Greek philosophy and culture.
2. If the Romans never took power, Christianity would not be the powerhouse it is today, and Islam may not even exist.
3. Persia was tolerant of other faiths and many people would still retain their indigenous faiths, although they might be altered over time through cultural interaction.

Any other ideas? Holes in this idea?

My recollection is that the Persians were not always tolerant of other faiths, and that the Zorostrians helped establish the noble tradition of monotheists beating up on pagans. Well, maybe it wasn't so noble. And this is all based on half-remembered accounts by Greek historians, who were hardly unboased. There's also the question of to what extent Christianity is distinct from Zoroastrianism, since Constantine issued a number of edicts in the 4th century to bring Mithraism -- arguably a branch of Zoroastrianism -- and Christianity closer together.

As far as Rome goes, I think you get to do pretty much whatever you want. You could argue that Persian cavalry wasn't effective in Western Europe, and end up with Rome vs Persia instead of Rome vs Parthia. Or you could have the Persians just roll over the west. Your big challenge is going to be coming up with a convincing way for them to maintain an empire with such a diverse economy and long lines of communicatioons when no one ever managed to do this in our world.

Same thing with Islam. It wasn't so much the sister religion to Christianity it is today as an Arab rebellion against rulers they found unpalatable. They could rebel against Persia just as easily as they did against Byzantium, and end up with a religion derived from Zoroastrianism (Zoroslam? Islianism?). I think this would be way cool -- one of those gimmicks that would get readers to sit up and take notice -- but it's pretty much up to you.

Scourge · August 31st, 2009, 11:13 AM

I plan on writing a story where its like christian theology except. Man gets sick of god because in this day and age we have moved beyond his need and he gets mad and sends the seven plagues and then humans revolt and kill jesus and god and then make satan bow down to humans or die.

**Rasta** · August 31st, 2009, 11:23 AM

Quote:

My recollection is that the Persians were not always tolerant of other faiths, and that the Zorostrians helped establish the noble tradition of monotheists beating up on pagans. Well, maybe it wasn't so noble. And this is all based on half-remembered accounts by Greek historians, who were hardly unboased. There's also the question of to what extent Christianity is distinct from Zoroastrianism, since Constantine issued a number of edicts in the 4th century to bring Mithraism -- arguably a branch of Zoroastrianism -- and Christianity closer together.

Cheers. Yeah, perhaps tolerant is a relative term. I thought I read they were fairly tolerant, but I could be wrong. I liked Zoroastrianism because there is an ideal to "have all people speak one language in one nation with no boarders" so it kinda fits with where I'd like to take the story.

Quote:

As far as Rome goes, I think you get to do pretty much whatever you want. You could argue that Persian cavalry wasn't effective in Western Europe, and end up with Rome vs Persia instead of Rome vs Parthia. Or you could have the Persians just roll over the west. Your big challenge is going to be coming up with a convincing way for them to maintain an empire with such a diverse economy and long lines of communicatioons when no one ever managed to do this in our world.

Yeah, this is going to be tough.

Quote:

Same thing with Islam. It wasn't so much the sister religion to Christianity it is today as an Arab rebellion against rulers they found unpalatable. They could rebel against Persia just as easily as they did against Byzantium, and end up with a religion derived from Zoroastrianism (Zoroslam? Islianism?). I think this would be way cool -- one of those gimmicks that would get readers to sit up and take notice -- but it's pretty much up to you.

Good point. Thanks for the food for thought.

**Rasta** · August 31st, 2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourge

I plan on writing a story where its like christian theology except. Man gets sick of god because in this day and age we have moved beyond his need and he gets mad and sends the seven plagues and then humans revolt and kill jesus and god and then make satan bow down to humans or die.

Ha! That's a funny idea. So, maybe heaven physically exists in the clouds or something?

Megidolaon · September 2nd, 2009, 02:09 PM

2 things on alternative history off the top of my head:
A) 2009 - Lost Memories. A mediocre Korean movie about an alternate world where Berlin was the target of the A bomb at the end of WW2 and not Japan. Japan invaded Korea and still occupies it.

B) a documentary I saw about a Chinese minister. I forgot when he lived, but I think around 1200-1400 or something.
He lead a series of Chinese expeditions into the west (before the Europeans opened up trade routes to China), but when the emperor died and a new one replaced him, these expeditions were stopped.
The documentary supposed the world might look very different if he had been allowed to continue as Chinese influence would have spread far and wide into the west.