oshron

oKAY, the last time i made this thread, it just became another religion vs. evolution argument. this time, there are some ground rules and things to keep in mind:

-- no, im not going to explain what everything is in this one post. if you really want to know, google it. ive given specific names thatll lead you right to them.
-- this is speculation of alternative evolution. the environment here means that there are pretty much no modern animals from our world present, except maybe for some birds, fish, arthropods, sharks, and select cold-blooded reptiles like snakes and turtles. this means that there are no horses, no dogs, and above all, NO HUMAN BEINGS
-- this is speculation of an alternative world without human beings. therefore, there are no human religions, so dont bring up anything remotely related to that. i dont care what the **** your personal beliefs are, they do not exist in this speculative, alternative world, so, again, DO NOT BRING THEM UP
-- finally, what im really asking for here is just what you all think would happen in a world in which two lineages of sentient dinosaurs--troodonts in the Americas and unenlagiines in Afro-Eurasia--would happen. this means approximate years (please date as if it was in our own history for simplicity's sake, like 2000 years ago or 1 AD, something like that) for when significant events happen, like mastery of fire, the development of specific tools, major migrations, wars, social developments, and so on

this is for research into a speculative zoology/history/paleohistory of an alternative earth in which the dinosaurs never went extinct and continued to evolve for at least 65.5 million more years (up to our present day). aside from the presence of dinosaurs and some flora that are extinct in our time or never existed at all, the environment is exactly the same as our earth in the present day, though without any human influences (human pollution, global warming, etc). im still working out the actual bestiary, but i have a basic idea as to what the current fauna for each general continent is by the present day:

MANY OR ALL CONTINENTS AND OTHER BESTIARY NOTES

1. cimolestans (mammals, appearing in tree squirrel-like forms)
2. primates (all lemur-like, but do not occur in Madagascar or in Europe)
3. hyaenodonts/mesonychians (occurring as fox, cat, and civet analgues)
4. avimimids (the dominant omnivorous dinosaur)
5. giant azdarchids (gigantic pterosaurs that soar over all continents, except for antarctica)
6. eunemicolopterids (a speculative pterosaur clade primarily existing in rainforests and frugivores and omnivores, and possibly producing hornbill-like forms)
7. anurognathids (small pterosaurs that occur in most environments as nightjar analogues, active primarily at dusk and dawn)
8. ctenochasmatoids (pterosaurs which may or may not have survived the most recent world cooling)

AFRICA

1. plesiadapiformes (primate-like mammals, diverse in Madagascar)
2. noasaurs (abelisaur-like theropods, existing mainly in tropics)
3. dromaeosaurs (occurring in leopard-like forms)
4. tyrannosaurs (occurring in jackal- or hyena-like forms)*

EUROPE

1. metatherians (marsupial-like mammals, occurring in shrew- and weasel-like forms)
2. dromaeosaurs (dominant small- to mid-size predators in cold latitudes)
3. tyrannosaurs (dominant large predators in cold latitudes)
4. dwarf sauropods (occurring in Mediterranean isles)
5. dwarf hornless ceratopsians (occurring in Mediterranean isles)
6. heterodontosaurs (now the dominant herbivore, well-established in cold climates)

ASIA

1. choristoderes (semi-terrestrial crocodilians, see Pristichampsus)
2. monitor lizards
3. small pterosaurs (flying "dinosaurs"--not actually dinosaurs, but closely related)
4. sauropods (long-necked dinosaurs)
5. ankylosaurs
6. metatherians
7. noasaurs (abelisaur-like theropods, existing mainly in tropics, except for one or two giant Eurasian genera)
8. dromaeosaurs
9. tyrannosaurs
10. heterodontosaurs

AUSTRALIA

1. unenlagiines (possibly become the dominant predator here with the extinction of the last allosaurs)
2. crocodilians (possibly become dominant predators)
3. hadrosaurs
4. basal ceratopsians (ie, psittacosaurs)
5. large mammals
6. flightless birds

NORTH AMERICA

1. dromaeosaurs
2. tyrannosaurs
3. heterodontosaurs

SOUTH AMERICA

1. noasaurs
2. troodonts (achieve dominance and possibly produce sentient forms)
3. meridiungulates
4. dromaeosaurs (reduced to rather small forms on this continent)
5. hadrosaurs (reduced to large, elephantine forms on this continent)

OCEANS

1. mosasaurs (restricted to teh tropics, no longer being the dominant marine reptile)
2. gharial and choristodere crocodiles
3. sea birds and polycotolids (occur in colder waters)
4. aquatic mammals (not necessarily whales, but would probably have similar forms to those by now; these animals occur in cold and warm climates and become larger than ever before)

*please keep in mind, for tyrannosaurs, that not all of them were especially big, averaging at around 25 feet

outlaw_art

If dinnosaurs ruled the earth I don't think iphones would be selling as fast.

oshron

lol, thats true

okamido

Don't be so sure..

okamido

I actually find this kind of fascinating.

In the cooler climates, such as Europe, how are you proceeding with their body tempertures. Are you operating under the idea that they are ectothermic or endothermic? Is there a plausible evolutionary thought to this?

oshron

its pretty well accepted in the paleontological community that all dinosaurs were warm-blooded, which would be required by carnivorous ones to hunt, whereas some herbivores may have been cold-blooded (its thought that stegosaurs may be among these select few since they may have absorbed additional heat through their plates, but it doesnt matter for this speculative history since stegosaurs are already extinct by the cenozoic)

with the ice ages starting in the pliocene epoch, it has been established elsewhere that a good number of life forms in europe and in northern latitudes die out, like sauropods disappear from europe but still exist in eastern asia and possibly in north america, but animals like tyrannosaurs, dromaeosaurs (raptors), and "the african ornithischians"--which become the dominant herbivorous group and are descended from relict heterodontosaur populations--establish themselves in colder climates

Charidemus

As the advanced, feathered coelurosaurs are close to their Avian cousins, i'm sure their vibrant vocal chords could develop into some language, and therefore begin the formation of social groups and more advanced intelligence.
So perhaps, some ingenious packs of Saurornithoides roaming around china?

oshron

perhaps. maybe they could be the chimpanzees of that world? that meaning that they are pretty closely related to the sentient dinosaurs and are quite intelligent, but not on the same level as th sentient ones

corrocamino

(Wall Street, ruler of much of the world, is a metaphorical dinosaur of sorts. It too shall go extinct -- I hope.)

Rasta

I think pterosaurs started getting outcompeted by birds.