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Old September 6th, 2016, 05:20 AM   #21
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Given the lack of Soviet readiness and the their need for massive US aid to turn the German tide, I don't think a soviet attack on Germany would have been remotely possible.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 05:56 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by yakmatt View Post
Given the lack of Soviet readiness and the their need for massive US aid to turn the German tide, I don't think a soviet attack on Germany would have been remotely possible.
Let us look at the soviet military in june 1941!

5.7 million soldiers
17.000 aircrafts
34.000 pieces of artillery
20.000 tanks (1000 T34)

The Wehrmacht could use for Barbarossa including some axis forces:
3.6 million soldiers
2.000 aircrafts
7.300 pieces of artillery
3.350 tanks
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Old September 6th, 2016, 06:51 AM   #23

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They have read his book, in which the destruction and conquest of the Soviet Union to provide resources and living space for the German Volk is clear laid out.
Attacking the Soviet Union was always Plan A.
When Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, he had no idea of what the political and military situation would be in 1941, so I do not agree that just because it's in his book, it must've been the sole reason for invasion, though I'd be the last to argue that Germany didn't have political and strategic goals to achieve in Russia.

The problem I have with the claim that the invasion of the Soviet Union was a decision based solely on acting out Hitler's ideology, is the fact that Operation Barbarossa is often criticized to have been carried out prematurely. The reason is simple: the Soviet Union was quickly becoming too powerful for Germany to handle. In fact, history teaches us that even when the Soviet Union was not yet in a position to attack Germany, it was already powerful enough to withstand total war against them, thus the Germans were too late.

If the Soviet Union hadn't been a threat and Operation Barbarossa was simply an ideological landgrab, Hitler would've secured his other fronts first. Because of the Soviet Union's rapid growth under Stalin, Hitler did not have the option of waiting.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 07:12 AM   #24
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When Hitler wrote Mein Kampf, he had no idea of what the political and military situation would be in 1941, so I do not agree that just because it's in his book, it must've been the sole reason for invasion, though I'd be the last to argue that Germany didn't have political and strategic goals to achieve in Russia.

The problem I have with the claim that the invasion of the Soviet Union was a decision based solely on acting out Hitler's ideology, is the fact that Operation Barbarossa is often criticized to have been carried out prematurely. The reason is simple: the Soviet Union was quickly becoming too powerful for Germany to handle. In fact, history teaches us that even when the Soviet Union was not yet in a position to attack Germany, it was already powerful enough to withstand total war against them, thus the Germans were too late.

If the Soviet Union hadn't been a threat and Operation Barbarossa was simply an ideological landgrab, Hitler would've secured his other fronts first. Because of the Soviet Union's rapid growth under Stalin, Hitler did not have the option of waiting.
As the Germans had no idea of the strength of the soviet Union i cant agree with tis line.Hitler did not really act in the world of facts his regime had created yes men and intelligence reports were pretty much said what he wanted them to say,

Hitler attacked the soviet union because he had no other target. Hitler just was not a good strategist. He had a hammer everything looked like a nail.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 07:20 AM   #25
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Hitler did not originate but he did buy into "The Stab in the Back Theory" which was a conspiracy theory circulating in Germany circa 1920. "The Stab in the Back Theory" blamed Germany's WW1 defeat on internal betrayal by the Jews or Communists rather than on any battlefield defeats. One of many factors driving Hitler's internal agenda was a desire to refight WW1 only this time Germany would win, or so Hitler wished. Since Germany had fought Russia in the first war, according to this world view, Germany had to fight Russia again. This theory also explains why Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. He was under no obligation to, but it was part of his 'do over' scheme.

The desire for "Living Space" was another factor driving Hitler's agenda, but he was not so locked in that he couldn't be flexible about either the land grab or the 'do over.'
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Old September 6th, 2016, 07:25 AM   #26
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Hitler did not originate but he did buy into "The Stab in the Back Theory" which was a conspiracy theory circulating in Germany circa 1920. "The Stab in the Back Theory" blamed Germany's WW1 defeat on internal betrayal by the Jews or Communists rather than on any battlefield defeats. One of many factors driving Hitler's internal agenda was a desire to refight WW1 only this time Germany would win, or so Hitler wished. Since Germany had fought Russia in the first war, according to this world view, Germany had to fight Russia again. This theory also explains why Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. He was under no obligation to, but it was part of his 'do over' scheme.

The desire for "Living Space" was another factor driving Hitler's agenda, but he was not so locked in that he couldn't be flexible about either the land grab or the 'do over.'
So Hitler wanted to refight the war to take revenge on Russia and US for beating them in WW1?
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Old September 6th, 2016, 07:32 AM   #27
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What if Germany did not attack the SU and the SU decided to attack 3-5 years later?
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Old September 6th, 2016, 07:32 AM   #28
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So Hitler wanted to refight the war to take revenge on Russia and US for beating them in WW1?
No. Hitler's plan for the Soviet Union weren't based on hate or revange for the defeat of WWI. WWI had to do with it, but in another connection. Germany suffered much of the blockade in 1914-18. Germany lacked of ressources. German soldiers in the east got during WWI the impression, that Russia and the Ukraine were less civilized, had much ressources, but that they weren't used adequately. Germany had lost its colonies and even those it had, were never ideal for a migration. The fertile eastern regions were and the so for many extreme right-winged people, it was seen as future colony. Hitler was one of them.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 07:36 AM   #29
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So Hitler wanted to refight the war to take revenge on Russia and US for beating them in WW1?
He wanted a massive land-empire for the Germans, and considered the Russians et al. people eastwards racially sub-par in such a way that they were ripe for colonisation. He wanted a situation somewhat like what he perceived the British had in India, with the Germans in the position of the British, and Russians etc. in the position of the Indians.
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Old September 6th, 2016, 07:40 AM   #30
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What if Germany did not attack the SU and the SU decided to attack 3-5 years later?
Then that would be a different kind of war.

And under those circumstances, if the Soviets really were actively preparing to go to war against Nazi Germany in the near future, but Nazi Germany attacked first, then that would be a preventive war.

But one can't just declare any war preventive on the basis that under more or less extreme future circumstances some country or other MIGHT decide to seek a war.

What would have been a preventive war in 1941 would have been IF the Soviets in the weeks prior to Barbarossa being given the go-ahead had launched an attack. But the Soviets didn't, and at the time they lacked the dispositions to even try it anyway.
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