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Old October 28th, 2016, 03:42 PM   #1
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Revisiting the old "Top 100 Generals" list


letMy revision/variation of the well-known Top 100 Generals list

The original list is here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...istory.266934/


And the top 100 generals in history in my opinion:

1. Genghis Khan
2. Alexander the Great
3. Napoleon
4. Hannibal
5. Julius Caesar
6. Khalid ibn al-Walid
7. Timur
8. John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough
9. Gustavus Adolphus
10. Jan Zizka
11. Scipio Africanus
12. Aleksandr Suvorov
13. Subutai
14. Belisarius
15. Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne, vicomte Turenne
16. Nader Shah
17. Eugene of Savoy
18. Frederick the Great
19. Heraclius
20. Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington
21. Bai Qi
22. Philip II of Macedon
23. Cyrus the Great
24. Chandragupta Maurya
25. Stephen the Great
26. Maurice de Saxe
27. Raimundo Montecuccoli
28. Skenderbeg
29. Han Xin
30. Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba
31. Helmuth von Moltke
32. Louis II of Conde
33. Yue Fei
34. Louis Nicholas Davout
35. Erich von Manstein
36. Maurice of Nassau
37. Baibars
38. Claude de Villars
39. Tran Hung Dao
40. Shapur I
41. Gaius Marius
42. Robert E. Lee
43. Tiglath Pileser III
44. Selim I
45. John Hunyadi
46. Ulysses S. Grant
47. Thutmose III
48. Simeon the Great
49. Alessandro Farnese
50. Taizong of Tang
51. Albrecht von Wallenstein
52. Toyotomi Hideyoshi
53. Epaminondas
54. Prince de Luxembourg
55. Heinz Guderian
56. Babur
57. Aleksandr Vasilevsky
58. Robert Clive
59. Richard the Lionheart
60. Vo Nguyen Giap
61. Stonewall Jackson
62. Jebe
63. Georgy Zhukov
64. Nurhaci
65. Oda Nobunaga
66. Leo III the Isaurian
67. Ambrosio de Spinola
68. Sebastian de Vauban
69. Winfield Scott
70. Shivaji Bhosle
71. Karl XII
72. Paul Emil von Lettow Vorbeck
73. Lucius Cornelius Sulla
74. Alp Arslan
75. Walther Model
76. James Graham-Montrose
77. Aurelian
78. Stanislaw Koniecpolski
79. Constantine the Great
80. Francesco Sforza
81. Bajirao
82. Bernard du Guesclin
83. Murad IV
84. Cao Cao
85. Stilicho
86. Mustafa Kemal
87. C. G. E. Mannerheim
88. Samudragupta
89. Shaka Zulu
90. Takeda Shingen
91. Ranjit Singh
92. Archduke Karl von Osterreich-Teschen
93. Erwin Rommel
94. Pyrrhus of Epirus
95. Lautaro
96. Andre Massena
97. Matthias Corvinus Hunyadi
98. Ahmad Shah Durrani
99. Narses
100. Chandragupta II

Last edited by Don Cartagena; October 28th, 2016 at 03:50 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2016, 08:06 PM   #2

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Cartagena View Post
letMy revision/variation of the well-known Top 100 Generals list

The original list is here:
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...istory.266934/


And the top 100 generals in history in my opinion:

1. Genghis Khan
2. Alexander the Great
3. Napoleon
4. Hannibal
5. Julius Caesar
6. Khalid ibn al-Walid
7. Timur
8. John Churchill, 1st Duke of Marlborough
9. Gustavus Adolphus
10. Jan Zizka
11. Scipio Africanus
12. Aleksandr Suvorov
13. Subutai
14. Belisarius
15. Henri de la Tour d'Auvergne, vicomte Turenne
16. Nader Shah
17. Eugene of Savoy
18. Frederick the Great
19. Heraclius
20. Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington
21. Bai Qi
22. Philip II of Macedon
23. Cyrus the Great
24. Chandragupta Maurya
25. Stephen the Great
26. Maurice de Saxe
27. Raimundo Montecuccoli
28. Skenderbeg
29. Han Xin
30. Gonzalo Fernandez de Cordoba
31. Helmuth von Moltke
32. Louis II of Conde
33. Yue Fei
34. Louis Nicholas Davout
35. Erich von Manstein
36. Maurice of Nassau
37. Baibars
38. Claude de Villars
39. Tran Hung Dao
40. Shapur I
41. Gaius Marius
42. Robert E. Lee
43. Tiglath Pileser III
44. Selim I
45. John Hunyadi
46. Ulysses S. Grant
47. Thutmose III
48. Simeon the Great
49. Alessandro Farnese
50. Taizong of Tang
51. Albrecht von Wallenstein
52. Toyotomi Hideyoshi
53. Epaminondas
54. Prince de Luxembourg
55. Heinz Guderian
56. Babur
57. Aleksandr Vasilevsky
58. Robert Clive
59. Richard the Lionheart
60. Vo Nguyen Giap
61. Stonewall Jackson
62. Jebe
63. Georgy Zhukov
64. Nurhaci
65. Oda Nobunaga
66. Leo III the Isaurian
67. Ambrosio de Spinola
68. Sebastian de Vauban
69. Winfield Scott
70. Shivaji Bhosle
71. Karl XII
72. Paul Emil von Lettow Vorbeck
73. Lucius Cornelius Sulla
74. Alp Arslan
75. Walther Model
76. James Graham-Montrose
77. Aurelian
78. Stanislaw Koniecpolski
79. Constantine the Great
80. Francesco Sforza
81. Bajirao
82. Bernard du Guesclin
83. Murad IV
84. Cao Cao
85. Stilicho
86. Mustafa Kemal
87. C. G. E. Mannerheim
88. Samudragupta
89. Shaka Zulu
90. Takeda Shingen
91. Ranjit Singh
92. Archduke Karl von Osterreich-Teschen
93. Erwin Rommel
94. Pyrrhus of Epirus
95. Lautaro
96. Andre Massena
97. Matthias Corvinus Hunyadi
98. Ahmad Shah Durrani
99. Narses
100. Chandragupta II
Good list. The only things I would change, if it were up to me:

-Switch the places of Napoleon and Caesar (IMO, the former made too many disastrous mistakes to be better than the latter, who never lost a campaign).

-Switch the places of Khalid and Marlborough (both undefeated, but the details on former are hazy, and the latter fought more formidable opponents).

-Switch the places of Grant and Lee (the former out-maneuvered the latter in 1864).

-Swap out Erwin Rommel (who isn't top 100 material IMO due to a poor conception of strategy), and put Gebhard von Blucher in his place.

-Switch the places of Winfield Scott and Stonewall Jackson (the former was always good, while the latter had a few fairly poor performances)

-Switch Ahmad Shah Durrani and Bajirao (the former kicked the crap out of the Marathas anyhow, even if it wasn't Bajirao himself)

-Personal preference would probably have me switching the places of Timur and Nader Shah, but I don't really have any objective measure for that.

Last edited by nuclearguy165; October 28th, 2016 at 08:14 PM.
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Old October 28th, 2016, 08:33 PM   #3

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Old October 28th, 2016, 09:39 PM   #4

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I probably would not put in Murad IV. His claim to fame is seemingly picking up the Ottoman Empire out of the gutter. However his understanding of strategy and logistics for that matter seemed limited. Though he did take Yerevan and Tabriz from the Safavids he was unable to hold them for long. He did eventually manage to take Baghdad but that is really his major accomplishment.

However my memory on this subject is a little bit hazy after so long.
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Old October 28th, 2016, 11:06 PM   #5

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearguy165 View Post
Good list. The only things I would change, if it were up to me:

-Switch the places of Napoleon and Caesar (IMO, the former made too many disastrous mistakes to be better than the latter, who never lost a campaign).
This is a fair view. In general, I noticed he should not be above Hannibal. Caesar is not found until 14, just behind Scipio, on the original.
Quote:
-Switch the places of Grant and Lee (the former out-maneuvered the latter in 1864).


-Swap out Erwin Rommel (who isn't top 100 material IMO due to a poor conception of strategy), and put Gebhard von Blucher in his place.

-Switch the places of Winfield Scott and Stonewall Jackson (the former was always good, while the latter had a few fairly poor performances)
I agree. Rommel has him mostly in popularity. Where the former was successful, in his aggressiveness, the latter was to a larger extent.

Pyrrhus, 94, is way too low (he gets removed off the list entirely on further revisions from that guy because someone commented something along the lines of "The only positive PR I've ever heard for him comes from Hannibal"). Especially considering that men like Rommel and Stonewall Jackson are above him. I would have him higher than some of the other ancients like Marius for battlefield successes against tougher opponents among other things.

Massena, 96, is very low and he's another I would put above more popular generals like Stonewall Jackson and Rommel. Not the most well versed on either, but your thoughts above Rommel, I would imagine are true for both.

Last edited by Pyrrhos The Eagle; October 28th, 2016 at 11:08 PM.
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Old October 29th, 2016, 01:39 AM   #6

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrrhos The Eagle View Post
This is a fair view. In general, I noticed he should not be above Hannibal. Caesar is not found until 14, just behind Scipio, on the original.
I agree. Rommel has him mostly in popularity. Where the former was successful, in his aggressiveness, the latter was to a larger extent.

Pyrrhus, 94, is way too low (he gets removed off the list entirely on further revisions from that guy because someone commented something along the lines of "The only positive PR I've ever heard for him comes from Hannibal"). Especially considering that men like Rommel and Stonewall Jackson are above him. I would have him higher than some of the other ancients like Marius for battlefield successes against tougher opponents among other things.

Massena, 96, is very low and he's another I would put above more popular generals like Stonewall Jackson and Rommel. Not the most well versed on either, but your thoughts above Rommel, I would imagine are true for both.
Massena distinguished himself mostly as a subordinate commander, even in a tactical sense. On that level, he was one of Napoleon's best. Independently, he won a battle in Switzerland against an out-numbered Russo-Austrian army in 1799, and campaigned with only a fair degree of success against Archduke Charles in 1805, but that's roughly it as far as positive independent accomplishments go. On the negative side, his Portuguese campaign of 1810 was a borderline disaster, from which he never recovered. I would put him above Rommel, and I agree that he deserves to be on the list (unlike Rommel), but in independent command, he really doesn't have anything to match Jackson's Valley Campaign.

Last edited by nuclearguy165; October 29th, 2016 at 01:46 AM.
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Old October 29th, 2016, 01:41 AM   #7

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Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
I probably would not put in Murad IV. His claim to fame is seemingly picking up the Ottoman Empire out of the gutter. However his understanding of strategy and logistics for that matter seemed limited. Though he did take Yerevan and Tabriz from the Safavids he was unable to hold them for long. He did eventually manage to take Baghdad but that is really his major accomplishment.

However my memory on this subject is a little bit hazy after so long.
Good point. Heck, I would possibly replace him with Topal Osman, who, under pretty even odds, handed Nader Shah his only significant defeat in battle.
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Old October 29th, 2016, 01:57 AM   #8

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuclearguy165 View Post
Massena distinguished himself mostly as a subordinate commander, even in a tactical sense. On that level, he was one of Napoleon's best. Independently, he won a battle in Switzerland against an out-numbered Russo-Austrian army in 1799, and campaigned with only a fair degree of success against Archduke Charles in 1805, but that's roughly it as far as positive independent accomplishments go. On the negative side, his Portuguese campaign of 1810 was a borderline disaster, from which he never recovered. I would put him above Rommel, and I agree that he deserves to be on the list (unlike Rommel), but in independent command, he really doesn't have anything to match Jackson's Valley Campaign.
He was more consistent in his role than Jackson was and his reputation is less boosted by political credit as Jackson's has with the Lost Cause. His failures I would also credit in part to Napoleon as his general was supposed to be sent with more resources and freedom than he actually got. I do not know the specifics of how much that influenced him, but I take it into account. Jackson doesn't actually seem to have been Lee's best subordinate and while he has the Valley campaign, that shines over the rest of his career more than is reasonable.

I'm not sure his record is much worse than Charles, but that's unfair, considering relatively independent command vs subordinate command. My comments about Massena, and to a lesser degree Pyrrhus, have as much to do with the men in front as the man himself.

Speaking of Charles, I see an updated list has him down much lower
"140 Jean Lannes
141 Xiang Yu
142 Pyrrhus of Epirus
143 Harpagus
144 Archduke Charles of Austria"

Last edited by Pyrrhos The Eagle; October 29th, 2016 at 02:12 AM.
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Old October 29th, 2016, 02:56 AM   #9
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What did Cao Cao do to deserve the 84 spot? His flop in Red Cliff battle show how good he's without his advisors and generals. Shaka Zulu shouldnt be in the top 100 or even top 150. He's famous but other than conquering neighboring tribes, what else did he do to be rated higher than Ranjit Singh, Pyrrhus and the likes?

I suggest you to:

_Remove or lower Cao Cao rank
_Remove Erwin Rommel
_Remove Shaka Zulu
_Add this guy who nearly conquered the whole Southeast Asia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayinnaung
_Add this guy who defeated Qing dynasty four freaking times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hsinbyushin
_Add Togo Heihachiro


I am deeply insulted by the lack of knowledge of people about Southeast Asia history.
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Old October 29th, 2016, 05:41 AM   #10

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Both the Duke of Marlborough and Gustavus Adolphus are a bit overrated on this list. Both were great commanders and the best of their generation but I can't see how you could put them above Jan Zizka, Scipio Africanus and Subutai.

Zizka's influence on war spread not only to western European culture but also to eastern nations such as the Ottomans and the Mughals. Both Selim I(the Grim) and Babur made extensive and highly successful use of the Wagenburg tactics that Zizka helped to create. Not to mention the fact that he was undefeated and raised an army from peasants to fight the more professional imperial armies.

Scipio was not only undefeated but he was instrumental in advancing the tactical abilities of the Roman infantry by using maneuver and the maniples in individual units acting in concert towards the same goal. He also showed an excellent understanding of grand strategy as shown by his eagerness to take the war to Africa and to gain valuable Numidian allies.

Subutai was imo the greatest operational strategist of all time. His ability to coordinated multiple armies hundreds of miles apart all toward one goal was a feat that would not be equaled until more mondern times. He was also an excellent tactician as the battle of Mohi would show.

My top ten would be

1. Alexander the Great
2. Genghis Khan
3. Julius Caesar
4. Napoleon
5. Khalid ibn al-Walid
6. Hannibal
7. Timur
8. Jan Zizka
9. Subutai
10. Scipio Africanus

Last edited by RomesFinest; October 29th, 2016 at 05:45 AM.
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