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Old December 4th, 2016, 11:13 AM   #41

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Both of you, cut it out NOW. This is your only warning.
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Old December 4th, 2016, 11:21 AM   #42
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Both of you, cut it out NOW. This is your only warning.
Ok.

Let's get back on topic, guys. There are some really good posts in this thread and I don't want the thread to get locked since there are still lots to discuss.
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Old December 4th, 2016, 12:19 PM   #43

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@jacquet
You've quoted Erich von Manstein.
It,s Well known that he was one of the instigators of the rehabilitation of the Wehrmacht, notably during the Nuremberg trials in 1946.
Maybe the text you 've quoted is one of these later memoirs which contribuate to the myth of the"clean Wehrmacht".
Anyway, "in 1949 he was tried in Hamburg for war crimes and convicted on nine of seventeen counts, including the poor treatment of prisoners of war and failing to protect civilian lives un his sphere of operation ".
Sorry i haven't got enough time to make deeper on the "case Manstein", maybe later ...
Here is a source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich__von_Manstein
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Old December 4th, 2016, 12:35 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by phil1904 View Post
@jacquet
You've quoted Erich von Manstein.
It,s Well known that he was one of the instigators of the rehabilitation of the Wehrmacht, notably during the Nuremberg trials in 1946.
Maybe the text you 've quoted is one of these later memoirs which contribuate to the myth of the"clean Wehrmacht".
Anyway, "in 1949 he was tried in Hamburg for war crimes and convicted on nine of seventeen counts, including the poor treatment of prisoners of war and failing to protect civilian lives un his sphere of operation ".
Sorry i haven't got enough time to make deeper on the "case Manstein", maybe later ...
Here is a source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich__von_Manstein
Manstein was also aware of the SD killings and made a joke about it:

"Manstein did nothing to prevent the killing of Jews and other civilians in the areas where his units were operating, and in which his Eleventh Army actively participated. That Manstein was well aware of the Einsatzgruppen massacres is demonstrated by a 1941 letter he sent to Otto Ohlendorf, in which Manstein demands Ohlendorf hand over the wristwatches of murdered Jews. Manstein felt his men deserved the watches, since they were doing so much to help Ohlendorf's men with their work. Smelser and Davies note that this letter was the only time that Manstein ever complained about the activities of the Einsatzgruppen. Manstein later stated that he felt the number of Jews killed in the Holocaust was exaggerated."
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Old December 16th, 2016, 02:15 PM   #45
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I feel I should say why I added certain generals at the nazi list. Alright:

Guderian received bribes and a state in Poland and only got "anti-nazi" after 1943-1944; in prison he said that the nazi regime was fine.

Rundstedt passed on the Severity Order;

Rommel supported the Nazis until the end.

The rest was explained here. I don't have sources other that wikipedia and the Soldaten book, because the other books I have deal with individual soldiers or the holocaust (tho Soldaten deals a lot), but I can link some really good docs:

Wehrmacht

Rommel

Manstein
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Old December 16th, 2016, 02:56 PM   #46
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are there any known examples of senior generals resigning 1933-1939?
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Old December 17th, 2016, 02:02 AM   #47

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are there any known examples of senior generals resigning 1933-1939?
General Ludwig Beck resigned. And not only he was an able General but respected throughout the German Army.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 03:24 AM   #48
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I....

Rommel supported the Nazis until the end.

......
you mean his end.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 01:21 PM   #49
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you mean his end.
indeed.
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Old December 17th, 2016, 03:13 PM   #50
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indeed.
Rommel was a soldier, a quite unpolitical soldier, but one who saw, that the Nazis made his army great again. He was never member of the NSDAP and seems to have had no greater interest nor knowledge about the Nazi ideology. He admired Hitler in the first years of his era for his political and military succesful and critisized him, when Hitler's decision became more and more influenced by ideological reasons. It is uncertain, whether Rommel took part in the assassination of Hitler or at least knew about it. His widow has made clear, that her husband was nothing else than an unpolitical soldier, bound to his oath.
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