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Old January 5th, 2017, 03:18 AM   #11

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Korean war question


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Originally Posted by aggienation View Post
Fired yes. For insubordination. Calling it treason waters down that word far more than Mr. Webster would be okay with.


Disobeyed direct orders from JCs.

Used the press to box Truman in & change policy.

Writes to congressman criticizing govnmt policy.

Finally & it is not covered in the seminal biographies of either & very few knew at the time- the intercepts of Mac's communications with diplomatic offices of foreign governments where he states he will set the policy in the Far East & not Truman. That's treason. Treason in the midst of one of the trickiest foreign policy crisis the world has seen.

"Insubordination" was a political expedient. In addition, Truman could not go public with the decrypts, lest he give up the source. Truman thought it was treason. I'll go with Harry.

Mac thought, as Manchester's bio is titled, he was a Caesar.


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Old January 5th, 2017, 05:00 AM   #12

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Korean war question


https://www.trumanlibrary.org/oralhist/marshall.htm

MARSHALL: Nitze says in his book somewhere that there were radio intercepts that revealed that MacArthur really wanted to have a general war with China, and he leaves it at that. He is being altogether too reticent, and

[116]

maybe I'm violating security by explicating that paragraph a little bit.

I'm telling you here about documents that I never saw, but I think I was reliably informed of their existence. We had at that time, and the world did not know we had, that mechanism that had been developed during World War II for decoding ENIGMA. I'm talking about a code breaker that we had picked up that the Germans I think had developed, and we got it from a Polish source, and so on. We were in war at that time--I mean the Korean war--and so every government's messages were being decoded. MacArthur never knew about that decoding business, by the way, the same as MacArthur never knew what the nuclear resources of the United States were. MacArthur was talking big in a Falstaffian way to the Spanish and the Portuguese Ambassadors in Tokyo. He was giving them information that they were cabling back to Franco and Salazar. The messages were going in code, and the United States was decoding the messages. So the U.S. Government knew what MacArthur was telling Franco and Salazar and that he was not telling Truman. He was telling Franco and Salazar that he was going to see to it that the U.S. got into a general war against China.


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Old January 5th, 2017, 05:29 AM   #13
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They would be crushed like a bug and counter invaded without US help. The reason China sucks in Korea is because of their logistic problem. While it may be a war on two fronts, US would have to handle both front. Fighting in China mainland gonna be a blow for US and Taiwan. And didnt Stalin has a defend pact with China or something?
But they were supposed to get help.

Mac specifically wanted to use tactical nukes to destroy the PVA on the Yalu, then march through that into China from its North with the Eighth Army, while we used bombers from Japan to nuke major Chinese cities, transportation hubs, and command amd control centers, while the Chinese Nationalists loaded up in Taiwan on US Navy ships and landed in specified ports of the mainland, being supported themselves with tactical nukes delivered by US forces.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 05:34 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by jgrooms View Post
Disobeyed direct orders from JCs.

Used the press to box Truman in & change policy.

Writes to congressman criticizing govnmt policy.

Finally & it is not covered in the seminal biographies of either & very few knew at the time- the intercepts of Mac's communications with diplomatic offices of foreign governments where he states he will set the policy in the Far East & not Truman. That's treason. Treason in the midst of one of the trickiest foreign policy crisis the world has seen.

"Insubordination" was a political expedient. In addition, Truman could not go public with the decrypts, lest he give up the source. Truman thought it was treason. I'll go with Harry.

Mac thought, as Manchester's bio is titled, he was a Caesar.


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Undermine or ignore instructions=insubordination. Not treason.

Truman was worried about Mac his entire time in office since he knew Mac was going to come home and run against him for President (which he did anyway, though lost the primary to Ike). With Mac going apparently rogue, talking all sorts of smack to the press, actually defying his orders, he did what he needed and got him relieved, for insubordination. Not treason.

Stop watering down terms. I swear in a few years if kids keep up at this rate none of these words will mean anything if you keep using them improperly.

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Old January 5th, 2017, 06:56 AM   #15

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Korean war question


^ Completely ignoring the fact you were most likely unaware of & the reason Truman called it treason.

I guess I should have underlined the key part?

...what he was not telling Truman & what he was passing on to heads of other governments.

The very definition of treason for anyone in the military.

Mac was trying to turn a UN action into a global war against the set policy of his government. Read his own stuff. Its planned & executed at multiple levels. Its far from tactical insubordination over details in his sphere.

Back to Harry & Webster.

Thankfully the political system worked and DM drifted off into obscurity where he belonged.


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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:00 AM   #16
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^ Completely ignoring the fact you were most likely unaware of & the reason Truman called it treason.

Mac was trying to turn a UN action into a global war against the set policy of his government. Read his own stuff. Its planned & executed at multiple levels. Its far from tactical insubordination over details in his sphere.

Back to Harry & Webster.

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insubordination: defiance of authority; refusal to obey orders.

So he created a plan to violate an order? Sounds like insubordination. So he violated the orders of his superior? Wow, sounds a whole lot like insubordination.

"the crime of betraying one's country, especially by attempting to kill the sovereign or overthrow the government."

Was he attempting to overthrow Truman? No
Was he attempting to stage a coup to take over the federal govt? No
Was he betraying his nation to a foreign power? No

He did nothing to qualify as treasonous, which is why ever person (at least those that don't possess axes to grind) describes Mac's crime as insubordination, NOT TREASON.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:07 AM   #17

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^ you may want to revisit the facts. He did betray his superior to a foreign power.
As the Enigma decrypts show.

His 'media' campaign did the same.


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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:09 AM   #18

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Anyone read HW Brands' new book on the subject?


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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:27 AM   #19
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^ you may want to revisit the facts. He did betray his superior to a foreign power.
As the Enigma decrypts show.

His 'media' campaign did the same.


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This whole conversation is absolutely ridiculous because its all predicated on you using a word out of context in a hyperbolic way and then spending post after post trying to defend it, when you should have just swallowed your pride and accepted that the English language and US Code doesn't agree with your theory about what constitutes treason.

18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
"Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States."

What Mac did was not even CLOSE.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 07:38 AM   #20

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Snowden is in prison for this:
...unauthorized communication of national defense information, and willful communication of classified intelligence to an unauthorized person.

I can point to three sources who saw the Enigma decrypts, and the above is the definition of. Those same three & Truman thought it treason.

You should swallow your pride & accept that the 'history' of this event was & to many remains incomplete without understanding the implications of DM's treasonous act.


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