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Old January 5th, 2017, 01:08 PM   #31
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Read my posts. The answers are there. Nobody ever said it? HST did.

There are three well cited sources, who in the late 80's & early 90's, revealed the Enigma decrypts. There's your treason. Look into it & add in the character of DM. Just because its new to you doesn't mean its not a fact.

Save your self righteous "man long since dead..." schtick. Its a history forum, they are all dead!


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Truman said treachery. You said treason. The former can be a synonym is treason, but not always, there are many other synonym that don't mean treason.

You're the one trying to prove this, not me, its on you to provide the proof. I provided the US code, here is the link once again, that describes treason. Use evidence and make your case for conviction for the charge of treason.

You can't, crypto or not, because nothing he did constitutes the charge of treason. Because it wasn't, it was insubordination. Nobody but you calls it treason. And you only used the word out of hyperbole, because you don't like MacArthur, because you just finished a book that details this subject and its still fresh in your mind, because you got a little excited, and because your ego wont allow you to admit you were being hyperbolic.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 01:47 PM   #32

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Korean war question


Well no I haven't read any on the subject in years. Although I'm interested if Brands' book ref Marshall & Nitze.

I can tell you McCullough & James ref neither, as the source did not exist. And these are without doubt the main starting points on both men. My old margin notes were interesting.

Treachery or treason = synonym & HST is dead as you like to point out.

You better get after the wiki editors, since they are ref the latest scholarship. And thats where the hairsplitting you like to engage in on treason vs treachery is.

Nevertheless, there can be no doubt that the decrypts were the main influencer for they prove that DM was lying through his teeth and telling foreign governments he -not the civilian authority - was going to set global policy regarding communism. That's treason to me. But to you its just insubordination.

No hyperbole required if you understand anything about the context of the early 50s & the potential consequences. Hell DM didn't even know what US nuclear capability was, but I digress.

Good thing HST was on deck. And yes, as someone well versed in DM, that has an influence on my interpretation of his Enigma screw up. He sang his tune the rest of his life & HST just kept his mouth shut because it was the right thing to do for his country. Imagine that!


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Old January 5th, 2017, 02:32 PM   #33
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Truman said treachery. You said treason. The former can be a synonym is treason, but not always, there are many other synonym that don't mean treason.

You're the one trying to prove this, not me, its on you to provide the proof. I provided the US code, here is the link once again, that describes treason. Use evidence and make your case for conviction for the charge of treason.

You can't, crypto or not, because nothing he did constitutes the charge of treason. Because it wasn't, it was insubordination. Nobody but you calls it treason. And you only used the word out of hyperbole, because you don't like MacArthur, because you just finished a book that details this subject and its still fresh in your mind, because you got a little excited, and because your ego wont allow you to admit you were being hyperbolic.
At this time wasn't Omar Bradley and George Marshall on the Joint Chief of staff? Did they have a position on the use of invading china from Formosa?
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Old January 5th, 2017, 03:24 PM   #34
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So the U.S. Government knew what MacArthur was telling Franco and Salazar and that he was not telling Truman. He was telling Franco and Salazar that he was going to see to it that the U.S. got into a general war against China.


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IF that;s true, it sounds an awful lot like treason to me.
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Old January 5th, 2017, 04:25 PM   #35

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At this time wasn't Omar Bradley and George Marshall on the Joint Chief of staff? Did they have a position on the use of invading china from Formosa?


Bradley was JCS & Marshall was Sec of Def. Washington's position was how best to defend Formosa wo antagonizing China. Which, of course, DM completely ignored. When the Chinese stormed across the Yalu, DM advocated Nationalist forces invade mainland China in an attempt to relieve his blunder.

Interesting how Taiwan & the issue of civilian control of the military is in the news?

And we have a PE who's appears to have a fetish for generals both living & dead. That being DM & George Patton.


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Old January 5th, 2017, 05:04 PM   #36

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IF that;s true, it sounds an awful lot like treason to me.


I'll find the article that ties the Nitze & Marshall versions about Enigma code breaking of DM's traffic and how it was the true final straw for Truman. Stuck in one book or another.

The standard narrative - see McCullough - is that he had already made up his mind (knowing of the Enigma encrypts we know why) when he called the cabinet meeting to dismiss DM. Of course everyone else in the room also knew the "emperor had no clothes" but the myth, much of it self-made, was huge.

Like many wwii events, this one deserves a well researched rewrite including the closely held code breaking impact.

Which brings up another interesting question- did DM not know about Ultra in ETO? Must not. GM didn't think too much of DM to put it mildly.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 11:51 AM   #37
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I'll find the article that ties the Nitze & Marshall versions about Enigma code breaking of DM's traffic and how it was the true final straw for Truman. Stuck in one book or another.

The standard narrative - see McCullough - is that he had already made up his mind (knowing of the Enigma encrypts we know why) when he called the cabinet meeting to dismiss DM. Of course everyone else in the room also knew the "emperor had no clothes" but the myth, much of it self-made, was huge.

Like many wwii events, this one deserves a well researched rewrite including the closely held code breaking impact.

Which brings up another interesting question- did DM not know about Ultra in ETO? Must not. GM didn't think too much of DM to put it mildly.
OK, I'm a little confused. Enigma was the German code machine. ULTRA was the British system that decoded the Enigma. Magic was the American system that decrypted Japanese code(s). What did Engma have to do with Macarthur?

Last edited by royal744; January 11th, 2017 at 12:24 PM.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 01:35 PM   #38

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Correct using the term Enigma here is incorrect. However, Ultra was not specific to UK once US entered the war & Ultra did not end when wwii ended.


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Old February 27th, 2017, 07:27 AM   #39
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Disobeyed direct orders from JCs.

Used the press to box Truman in & change policy.

Writes to congressman criticizing govnmt policy.

Finally & it is not covered in the seminal biographies of either & very few knew at the time- the intercepts of Mac's communications with diplomatic offices of foreign governments where he states he will set the policy in the Far East & not Truman. That's treason. Treason in the midst of one of the trickiest foreign policy crisis the world has seen.

"Insubordination" was a political expedient. In addition, Truman could not go public with the decrypts, lest he give up the source. Truman thought it was treason. I'll go with Harry.

Mac thought, as Manchester's bio is titled, he was a Caesar.


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I don't think Mac had a very profound understanding of American democracy. He came from a solidly military background where orders were given and orders were obeyed without question. As an adult, Mac didn't spend all that much time in the US, and, as a high-ranking officer suffering from an outsize ego and visions of personal grandeur. He surrounded himself with sycophants who either did his bidding or were out like a candle in a stiff wind. General Marshall told him that he "didn't have a staff, but had a court."

During the entire time he was in command in Korea, he spent not a single night in the country. I credit Mac for a brilliant (and quite lucky) operation at Inchon, but it was his idea that put that into motion

I don't tthink Mac had a real understanding of or appreciation for nuances of playing the bigger political game. I'm quite sure he regarded Truman as a weak parvenu and found it pretty easy in his Yes-World to believe that he could ignore his president's orders.

I'd have fired him too.
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