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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:13 PM   #21

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None of that makes his claims about warfare any less relevant. Naturally not all wars are a racket, but people certainly do profit from them. WW2 was probably the last major war fought for just reasons against an evil foe.

There's a very big moral difference between fighting a just war and fighting a war for political/economic needs. The founding fathers had the sense to stay out of such petty and trivial things, but post 45 the US has had little choice in becoming the world's policeman.

Imho wars are fought for many reasons, Thucydides claimed it was fear, Smedley claims rackets, very few are really just.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:28 PM   #22
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Fighting for fear, fighting for profit, fighting for land, all of that is "just" if the war is justified to its people (not to people reading history hundreds of years later).
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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:43 PM   #23

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Could the behaviour of Hitler and his sunshine band be described as just?
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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:46 PM   #24
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Could the behaviour of Hitler and his sunshine band be described as just?
Dont know. But you dont get to judge long dead peoples, govt, and the justness of war using your very 2017 sensibilities. That's called presentism, and goes with history as good as oil and water.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 03:55 PM   #25

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IMO, he also lied about being approached for the Business Plot. Its utterly ridiculous to imagine that a bunch of right wing corporate giants and politicians didn't do any background checks to realize they were propositioning a well known far left military officer (who NEVER attempted to keep his politics hidden) to overthrow a leftist presidency. Utterly ridiculous.
What do you base the idea that Butler was lying? Far as I've read both by the congressional reports and later historians studying the events the only possible thing Butler 'might' have lied about is the direct request for him to lead a putsch. Everything else he said about fascist organizations trying to infiltrate veterans groups was proven true and Roosevelt was warned by members of his cabinet, state department, and even the FBI of fascist organizing driven mostly by the money of some business groups opposed to FDR's statist and labor driven policies.

Personally I believe Butler was approached to entangle him in some embarrassing plot and he reacted by exaggerating the details but certainly did not create some large lie about some organized business attempts both to support fascism (which is well documented by the way in numerous nations not only Nazi Germany) but also to try and create fascist cliques within the U.S. who would oppose FDR and the leftist agenda politically.

Any idea of an armed coup is unlikely but not completely crazy given what had already occurred in Germany and Spain but the main goal wasn't insurrection but using politics to serve a specific business agenda favored by some corporatists.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:01 PM   #26

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Dont know. But you dont get to judge long dead peoples, govt, and the justness of war using your very 2017 sensibilities. That's called presentism, and goes with history as good as oil and water.
I don't intend to look back through the rose tinted glasses of 2017 ideals, that wouldn't be a very good way to do history because one would judge the past by our own standards.

But this does bring us to the more tricky subject of morality and ethics, which is of course subject to change through the ages.

However, I am of the opinion that some vague historical laws apply through all ages because you can find the teaching in every mainstream religion - integrity, honesty, courage and mercy are universal behaviours which, imho, can be found in any time and place.

From these standards we can form some judgement of the past and by these we can hold the past to account.

That is why we look up to Churchill, Ghandi, Washington and Wilberforce and look down on people like Genghis and Hitler.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:02 PM   #27
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What do you base the idea that Butler was lying? Far as I've read both by the congressional reports and later historians studying the events the only possible thing Butler 'might' have lied about is the direct request for him to lead a putsch. Everything else he said about fascist organizations trying to infiltrate veterans groups was proven true and Roosevelt was warned by members of his cabinet, state department, and even the FBI of fascist organizing driven mostly by the money of some business groups opposed to FDR's statist and labor driven policies.

Personally I believe Butler was approached to entangle him in some embarrassing plot and he reacted by exaggerating the details but certainly did not create some large lie about some organized business attempts both to support fascism (which is well documented by the way in numerous nations not only Nazi Germany) but also to try and create fascist cliques within the U.S. who would oppose FDR and the leftist agenda politically.

Any idea of an armed coup is unlikely but not completely crazy given what had already occurred in Germany and Spain but the main goal wasn't insurrection but using politics to serve a specific business agenda favored by some corporatists.
I'm talking specifically about the coup part. The people that supposedly propositioned him to lead a coup were some of the most successful, powerful, and influential men in America. And we're supposed to believe they were so upset over a leftist democrat winning the presidency that they tried to recruit an even further leftist to lead the coup? Were they too dumb to know they were recruitinh the very last person who'd do the job or stay silent. No way, he made it up.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #28

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Dont know. But you dont get to judge long dead peoples, govt, and the justness of war using your very 2017 sensibilities. That's called presentism, and goes with history as good as oil and water.


History evolves. Always has, always will.


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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:36 PM   #29
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History evolves. Always has, always will.
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No, primary sources don't change, keeping the historical enemy in its proper context. The people reading them intepret them different using their modem sensibilities even after being warned not to do that.
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Old January 11th, 2017, 04:56 PM   #30

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I'm talking specifically about the coup part. The people that supposedly propositioned him to lead a coup were some of the most successful, powerful, and influential men in America. And we're supposed to believe they were so upset over a leftist democrat winning the presidency that they tried to recruit an even further leftist to lead the coup? Were they too dumb to know they were recruitinh the very last person who'd do the job or stay silent. No way, he made it up.
He did not 'make it up' as there are letters discussing some future change of government between the principal businessman involved and other men but the extent of any conspiracy outside the wild imagining of a few businessmen who were clearly fascist sympathizers rather than some group of businessmen seeking to use fascism to further their business interests is completely unattested other than by Butler's testimony.

Probably there were discussions and ranting against FDR in many business meetings and fascist sympathizers would read into that favorably and probably misconstrue the level of support for more than political and financial opposition to FDR.

Saying that Butler made everything up and is a complete liar is simply wrong though the idea that Butler or any politically competent businessman would believe a fascist coup could occur is probably rubbish.

Butler was presented with something real which he then publicized and exaggerated the threat of due to his own sympathies and inclinations that FDR's policies weren't going far enough.

The episode was probably helpful in curtailing several corporations active abetting of fascist regimes due to the amount of attention it drew and in that regard while I think Butler knew there was little danger of a coup he was politically savvy enough to use the incident to put pressure on those industrialists attempting to play both sides of the war to further their own profits.
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